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Dave Chandler
Super Member
Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 691
Location: Mt Mitchell in North Carolina
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 Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:02 am Post subject: New process |
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Mr Masterson:
This is a forum for sharing knowledge. It attracts makers trying to understand the processes that surround the making of violins, so we are by nature curious and deeply into the details of how they work, and to understand and manage the many variables that come into play. We're the ultimate "do-it-yourselfers" so when you say there's a new process, we want to know what it is. AND we want the details. So, you're welcome to keep the process to yourself, but don't blame us for being skeptical as a result. I think invoking "Stradivarious" in the name of the process, when you have yet to apply it to a violin ... well that only creates more skepticism. As the old saying goes "If its too good to be true, it probably isn't."
We respect your right to keep it to yourself.
_________________
Dave in the Blue Ridge
Southern Violin Association
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next with no loss of enthusiasm" Winston Churchill
"I took the road less travelled, and now I don't know where I am." Marco Polo |
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mmasterson
Member
Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:11 am Post subject: Re: New process |
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| Dave Chandler wrote: | Mr Masterson:
This is a forum for sharing knowledge. It attracts makers trying to understand the processes that surround the making of violins, so we are by nature curious and deeply into the details of how they work, and to understand and manage the many variables that come into play. We're the ultimate "do-it-yourselfers" so when you say there's a new process, we want to know what it is. AND we want the details. So, you're welcome to keep the process to yourself, but don't blame us for being skeptical as a result. I think invoking "Stradivarious" in the name of the process, when you have yet to apply it to a violin ... well that only creates more skepticism. As the old saying goes "If its too good to be true, it probably isn't."
We respect your right to keep it to yourself. |
I think I am sharing some important knowledge of what accounts for certain wood specimens being more tonally special than others.
As far as the patent issue, it's up in the air. |
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Oded Kishony
Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 100
Location: Central Virginia
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I think I am sharing some important knowledge of what accounts for certain wood specimens being more tonally special than others |
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Name one new item of information you've contributed to this forum.
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violinarius
Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 171
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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There are sources that will allow a maker to buy wood that has the cell pit membranes removed via soaking in water for long periods of time.
The case of wood being recovered from the Great Lakes comes to mind.
I suspect that if having the cell membranes removed made a noticeable difference, then we would all be using this "open" wood.
Perhaps you have the wrong explanation for what is going on?
Since Stradivarius wood samples show that the membranes are intact, do you think it is possible that something else is happening?
If the process is truly amazing, then I don't mind letting a few people in line ahead of me, so that the kinks, if there are any, are ironed out first. Less risk for me. I also learned to swim in the little end of the pool before taking to the deep end.  |
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mmasterson
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Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| violinarius wrote: |
I suspect that if having the cell membranes removed made a noticeable difference, then we would all be using this "open" wood.
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They are not being removed. |
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Lemuel
Site Admin
Joined: 12 Aug 2010
Posts: 515
Location: Mt. Elgin, Ontario
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| Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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Michael,
It appears to me that your main selling point (or presumption?) is that your process is causing the "pit membrane being freed away from the pit opening and into the neutral (or open) position."
The electron-micro photos on your website (under webpage dealing with process), are these before and after photos of the same piece of wood, at the same location? If it is, then it looks like more than just pits are opening.
Also what do you mean by the sentence,
"The specific method for generating these results happens by way of an electromagnetic frequency which acts to open the inter-fiber pores when continuously applied over a number of weeks time."
Are you subjecting the instrument or wood under some sort of magnetic or electric field? |
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mmasterson
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Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Lemuel wrote: |
The electron-micro photos on your website (under webpage dealing with process), are these before and after photos of the same piece of wood, at the same location? If it is, then it looks like more than just pits are opening. |
It's two different pieces cut from the same larger piece of soundboard.
| Quote: | Also what do you mean by the sentence,
"The specific method for generating these results happens by way of an electromagnetic frequency which acts to open the inter-fiber pores when continuously applied over a number of weeks time."
Are you subjecting the instrument or wood under some sort of magnetic or electric field? |
Yes, I've found a particular frequency that over time achieves what I've shown and makes wood sound unbelievably good. |
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Mat Roop
Senior Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 911
Location: Wyoming Ontario
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| Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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Michael... just for clarity...are the closed pits the gray ones and the open pits the black ones? I am not sure as it seems from what has been said that the pit membranes are all still intact in both cases.
Cheers, Mat |
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Lemuel
Site Admin
Joined: 12 Aug 2010
Posts: 515
Location: Mt. Elgin, Ontario
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| Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| mmasterson wrote: |
Yes, I've found a particular frequency that over time achieves what I've shown and makes wood sound unbelievably good. |
In general, is this is your "Stradivarius" process? |
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Oded Kishony
Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 100
Location: Central Virginia
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| Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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About the electromagnetic spectrum... from wikipedia
| Quote: | | The electromagnetic spectrum extends from low frequencies used for modern radio to gamma radiation at the short-wavelength end, covering wavelengths from thousands of kilometers down to a fraction of the size of an atom. The long wavelength limit is the size of the universe itself, while it is thought that the short wavelength limit is in the vicinity of the Planck length, although in principle the spectrum is infinite and continuous. |
I think infra red has been eliminated and maybe some other frequencies but the range is "infinite and continuous" .
Revealing that an electro magnetic force was used is too clever by half and is pretty much meaningless.
Basically you have to trust the guy that what he's doing won't damage your instrument or wood, both in the short and long term. Short term is easy but how do you prove that it won't have an effect 50 or a hundred years from now? Oh yes, I remember now.... just trust me.
All that's been presented so far regarding violin acoustics are completely unsubstantiated claims, based on pseudo science and some sort of religious faith.
This does not mean that the guy is wrong or that his treatment doesn't work, it just means that he hasn't done his homework and doesn't know his science.
A well designed classic, double blind, placebo controlled, gold standard scientific experiment would convince any skeptic and maybe garner a Nobel prize. 
A shoddy, half ass, ill considered experiment with unsupported grand pronouncements will only heap more scorn on top of that already earned.
No use badgering Michael for details, he's entitled to protect his discovery.
I'm looking forward to hear and see the results of a legitimate experiment.
I'll be at the front of the line if I'm convinced that it works and results in a better sound. But 'faith based' science isn't going to do it.
BTW I agree that the microscopic photos are inconclusive since they don't show the same area. At least everything is consistent with the presentation of this 'discovery'; slipshod, ignorant and sloppy.
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mmasterson
Member
Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:18 am Post subject: |
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| Mat Roop wrote: | Michael... just for clarity...are the closed pits the gray ones and the open pits the black ones? I am not sure as it seems from what has been said that the pit membranes are all still intact in both cases.
Cheers, Mat |
There's really two sides to each pit, so it's not the easiest to tell. But in the first photo you can see the clogged pits where the membrane is stuck and hardened to the opening, on the other side of these pits you would see a black hole basically.
I'll get some better photos up in time but this is what I have to show for the moment. |
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mmasterson
Member
Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:19 am Post subject: |
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| Lemuel wrote: | | mmasterson wrote: |
Yes, I've found a particular frequency that over time achieves what I've shown and makes wood sound unbelievably good. |
In general, is this is your "Stradivarius" process? |
That's correct. |
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mmasterson
Member
Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:31 am Post subject: |
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| Oded Kishony wrote: | | Basically you have to trust the guy that what he's doing won't damage your instrument or wood, both in the short and long term. Short term is easy but how do you prove that it won't have an effect 50 or a hundred years from now? |
Because there's nothing about the wood that's changing other then the dampening being lessened. Everything else remains the same; mass; stiffness; appearance; smell; texture; etc. |
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Mat Roop
Senior Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 911
Location: Wyoming Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| mmasterson wrote: | There's really two sides to each pit, so it's not the easiest to tell. But in the first photo you can see the clogged pits where the membrane is stuck and hardened to the opening, on the other side of these pits you would see a black hole basically.
I'll get some better photos up in time but this is what I have to show for the moment. |
O K.. So the black holes are those with closed pits on "the otherside" and the grey colored pits are the pits closed on the near side. What are the telltale signs of the open pits..?
Cheers, Mat |
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Oded Kishony
Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 100
Location: Central Virginia
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:07 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Because there's nothing about the wood that's changing other then the dampening being lessened. Everything else remains the same; mass; stiffness; appearance; smell; texture; etc. |
You can't have it both ways, if the sound is radically changed it's because the properties of the wood have changed.
You still have not said how you measure damping in the wood.
And having looked at your evidence I have a very strong suspicion that the stiffness has changed significantly.
You are offering an untested (on violins), irreversible process and asking people to trust you, but personally, I have no faith in your process because it's obvious that you have not tested it properly and don't have a good understanding of either the chemistry or the physics.
For instance: have you measured the levels of hemicellulose before and after treatment? Have you measured the along grain, cross grain as well as the twisting stiffness of many samples of different varieties of maple and spruce? Red Maple, Silver Maple, Rock Maple, soft Maple, Big leaf Maple, Sitka spruce, Engelmann spruce, Red spruce etc-all woods that are commonly used by violinmakers?
From the limited data on your web site (2 samples) it looks as if the Osage reacted quite differently than the Mahogany. Have you examined why or how they differ?
Have you looked closely to see what effect your treatment has on various types of violin varnish; often very different from guitar finishes?
To make an assertion that it has no effect, you need to point to various tests and samples showing it to be safe. I need more than just a statement of your faith if you want me to pay you hundreds of dollars to put my violin, which may be worth tens of thousands, through your procedure.
I noticed too, that you don't make any statements in your website that you carry appropriate insurance-what if my instrument were accidentally damaged or dropped while in your possession, are you covered?
Look, I'm not putting down your process, maybe it's ground breaking and wonderful, but it looks as if you haven't given these things any thought whatsoever.
I don't even think you have even considered what kind of liabilities you've taken on as a business. You had better hope that someone doesn't bring a $50K violin to you and then claim you've ruined the sound or the varnish in some way.
Best of luck to you
Oded |
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