Violin Forum/Message Board

[mr_violin]

I bought some Engelmann wood for the top of violins this week. Some of the wood is over 50 years old (Dead that long) Some was just cut this year (new wood).How long should you let the new wood age before you make a violin with it. I always thought that the wood should be at the very least 5 years aging before you should use it on a violin.
Some say 50 years is best.

What I would like to know is how long would you wait to use the wood.
I can`t wait 50 years for this new wood or I would have to live to be over 105 years old.

[rs]

It's a lot like scotch. It gets better with time. The wait is hard though; especially the first fifteen years.

If this helps, W. W. Oakes (an American maker at the end of the 19th century) wrote (in his quirky book which I found actually quite good if one can dismiss some of his conclusions) that he found 1 1/2 years to be ample for his violins. He lived in the NW US and probably used alot of Engelmann. I like alot older than that myself. I like that older is lighter (if only by a tiny amount) and that it is a little harder (again if only by a tiny amount). My reasoning is this way. The wood as it dries undergoes drastic change that is most pronounced in its first few years. This change then tapers off over time so that the change from 5 to 10 years is much less pronounced than the change from 1 to 5 years.

I want to make a violin that lasts for generations. I therefore want to start with material that is the closest I can find to already being that old.
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Randall Shenefelt

[mr_violin]

Thanks RS

I did get 8 tops (wood) that are over 50 years old and 1 have one that is over 100 years old. If I make one violin a year That`s 9 years .I retier in 10 years
I plan to make 6 or 8 violins a year at that point ,so I need to buy some more old wood!!!

[Andres Sender]

Just date it and set it aside and stop thinking about it.

In 5 years your ideas will have changed, the world will have changed, who knows what you will be thinking.

By then you will have a solid idea of whether to use it or not, and by then it will certainly be reasonably usable in many people's view.

By then also you won't care about the money you spent, and you'll be glad to have some stashed wood, whether it is to use then, or in another 10 years.
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You can only connect the dots that you have.

[rs]

My suggestion is to go with what you are comfortable with. Once it is dry, you have alot of possibilities.

I very much would like to acquire a horde of wood to select from as you have done.

If this helps, I buy my wood as needed. This is for economical reasons only. I buy the very best I can even if I have to scrimp somewhere else in my life.

I pay about $100 for European tops, $200 for backs. I am told this wood is about 10 years old. I use it right away, again for economy only. I am satisfied with this wood, both in quality and age.

To be able to go to a stash and select a choice, seasoned piece to me right now would be ideal, almost surreal. I don't see it happening at any time soon for me, though.

The only caution I would give, in case you haven't done it already, is that there is a need to seal the ends well while being stored. This prevents crackage and discoloration of the wood. The second is to make sure the wood is kept where air can get to it and yet is kept perfectly flat. If your pieces are split in wedges or cut in planks, a good idea is to place the pieces stacked flat on top of one another with thin strips of wood at 4 inch intervals in between them to permit air to get in. This flat stacking prevents twisting.

If I had a stash, I would get somewhere Glenn Merengue Scotch (I don't think that I spelled this right) and sip on that while checking the material every six months or so.
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Randall Shenefelt

[Geemac]

I'm 65. In my case, waiting for the spruce to mature is not good. So I go to the lumber yard and pick a nice fresh 12x12 block of knot free spruce and split the wood I want out of it. Then, I make a violin/fiddle. But, I am just a hobby maker and don't sell mine.

Don't be too serious. The universe is billions of years old and you'll only be here for about .0000000001076923% of that time.
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GeeMac

[mr_violin]

Thanks, I will be able to make 10 violins before I start with this newer wood, so by then I would hope it will be ready to use.
I have not even made my first one yet so it could take a few years befor I get to that newer wood.

[Dave Chandler]

I have the beginnings of a "stash". But at 60 years old, I don't need a particularly large stash.

I'm fortunate to have some Appalachian Red Spruce that I pulled from high altitude, that was blown down in storm about 4-5 years ago. Many of these trees are 30-34" in diameter. I put this under my house in quarter logs or smaller, mostly 1/8ths, about 2' long with ends sealed with wax. After 6 months (last fall) I pulled out a piece and made a violin top. The result was absolutely unreal, the volume and sensitivity has everyone in my little community orchestra astounded. (They've seem my previous 10 violins, and they were NOT so impressed).

Before this last violin ( opus 11) I had been buying good AA or AAA Engleman or Sitka, and never had this effect. It could be that a number of different things simply came together in just the right way, but I think its the spruce. From what I've been reading, suppliers say this is the spruce that the pre-war (wwII) Martin Guitars used, and as a rresult are highly prized. Nowadays, you can only get small pieces unless you can get into old-growth forests, and what is available in new forests are just now getting to about 70-80 years, about 20-24" in diameter. Seems large, but the center 2-3 inches have lots of twigs and stumps of branches that broke off and the tree grew around, The outer 2-3 inches is sapwood. So 12" radius ends up only about 5-6 inches of decent wood, so the commercial 2nd growth wood is just coming into large enough sizes to make violins, but good luck finding any. There is a lot of spruce, same species, from eastern Canada, but for some reason is not as highly prized as the wood out of the Smokies/Blue Ridge.

Never tried European Spruce although this ARS is very close in density and stiffness. So, I have enough perhaps for 20-30 tops, but the effort (for a 60 year old) was so great to get this out of the woods, that unless someone has something pretty unique to trade, I don't intend to let any of it go -- particularly in light of this last violin.

Recently I found someone that had taken an old maple tree down that has some exquisite tight and hard curl in it. Using his portable sawmill, he cut these into 12" x 1.5" boards, several hundreds. Only about 1 in 20 were cut on the quarter. I was able to salvage one 12' board that was cut on the quarter, that will make about 8 violins, some 2-piece, some 1-piece backs, lots left for rib wood, may have to splice wood for necks. My cost will be about $8 per back. I may go back and look for another board. Problem is, I'm going to have to wait a couple years before I use it, as it only came down last year.

So, I have the beginnings of a "stash" but for the next year or two will have to continue buying wood from traditional suppliers while this cures.

So do I have a point? I guess the point is it even fairly new wood can make an outstanding violin, AND if you buy fairly new wood now, you'll have great wood 20 years from now.
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Dave in the Blue Ridge
Southern Violin Association

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next with no loss of enthusiasm" Winston Churchill

"I took the road less travelled, and now I don't know where I am." Marco Polo

[byacey]

I have some nice 1/4 sawn spruce 2x6s that I found at the lumberyard about 25 years ago, and it makes wonderful tops. At the time I didn't think it would ever develop into anything worthwhile using. Always be on the lookout for wood, and as long as you keep replenishing what you use, you will always have seasoned wood on hand after a few years.

I have heard that when wood gets too old and dry it's difficult to work because it tends to chip and be splintery.

Regarding tonewood, personally, I would never consider spending anything more than $20 for a spruce billet; there's lot's of nice wood if you snoop around. I haven't yet found any stellar qualities with tonewood from suppliers.

GeeMac, are you buying wood from Grove Lumber? If so, that's pretty fresh cut and would have to be put up for at least 5 years in my opinion.
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Bill

[mikemolnar]

I have had some luck in buying tonewood from luthiers who have overstocked and are slowing down due to old age.

In any case, I think it's fun getting wood from various sources just to experiment.

Stay tuned.
Mike

[Geemac]

If you are a perfectionist and make your living by selling your violins this is not for you. I am not a perfectionist and I am retired. I like to make fiddles as cheaply as I can. If this is your situation then try this.

In a large pan (I use a big roaster) add about an inch of water.

When the water is boiling add about a half a cup of epsom salts and stir until the salt is disolved. You may want to add a bit of borax and some washng soda to the water as well.

Add the green spruce and boil it about half an hour on each side.

After an hour, remove the spruce with tongs and allow it to air dry for a week or two. It will be dry as a bone and light as a feather.

This method works for me and I get my spruce free from the scrap pile at the local lumber yard.

Note all who became aghast at reading this. Don't knock until you try it. It costs you almost nothing to acquire some green spruce and cook it in a salt solution. The salt will quickly suck it dry and if it is going to split, that is when it will happen. I dry mine in the microwave then let is sit for a couple of weeks. To those who say OMG you cannot do that it isn't traditional . . . try it before you poo poo the idea.
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GeeMac

[Michael Darnton]

Why epsom salts?
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[Geemac]

Epsom salt MGSO4 seems to work as good as plain salt NACL but the tiny glitch is that epsom salt is (place can of worms here magnesium sulphate and has been found under some, but not all, elderly violin's finishes. More expensive table salt will also work fine for drawing out the moisture. The magnesium probably contributes nothing to the sound of the finished instrument, so it's your choice. The hardest part for me to get this done was finding a pan big enough to hold the length of spruce needed for the top. I found one for about twenty bucks at Bed Bath and Beyond.
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GeeMac

[Michael Darnton]

You do realize that what you are doing is injecting salt into the wood, and when the wood dries, the residual salt will attract water into the dry wood, more than it had before, not out of it.
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new blog at my site! http://darntonviolins.com/blog
my work sites: http://darntonviolins.com and http://darntonhersh.com

[Geemac]

I haven't noticed that happening.
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GeeMac