Violin Forum/Message Board

[famuswood]

Andres - The measurement from the edge of the top to the nick is about 19 cm. When I get the angle of the neck right, it should be a little more than 19 cm. The measurement from the edge of the top to the joint between the fingerboard and nut is 13.5. Which, I believe is not too far from acceptable. What do you think?

Thanks

[Michael Darnton]

I think the best you could do right now is take your Ossman book, and burn it, before you get any deeper in. The usual numbers are 130mm plus or minus about zero, and 195, with a little more room there. If a violin showed up in my shop with 135/190, I wouldn't sell it, pretty much no matter what.

[byacey]

[Michael Darnton]

I bought it many, many years ago. When I opened it at home, I was dismayed. I should have known from the lumpen, mis-shapen things he calls instruments in the photos that he really had no idea what he was talking about. I think it must be the worst do-it-yourself book ever written.

[rs]

I never saw the book. When I started, books on the subject were hard to find. I learned alot from three makers where I used to live; one in particular. And just alot from experimentation. In the final analysis, though, violin making is alot like making waffles, you have to throw the first couple out!

It is much easier to get really good information now. For example, I very much liked your explanation earlier, Michael, on purfling corners and beestings. One thing that will help me, from that article, is the gluing procedure and your recommendation to dry-fit the purfling in outer bouts while gluing the C's in and then working the glue from the outer bouts to the corners. I was fighting having to work very fast before the joint swelled. I was not satisfied with the system I had developed to be sure. None of that has anything to do with neck length in this post but it illustrates to me how much good workmanship and explanation are invaluable aids to improvement.

Thanks again and best wishes
_________________
Randall Shenefelt

[famuswood]

Michael,

Trust me - it's burned as far as I'm concerned. I've got the Courtnall/Johnson book and a strad poster for my next effort. Still, despite misguided information and my lack of attention to detail at times, I am learning a lot from this experience - especially from people like you, and the other wonderful contributors on this forum who almost daily share their knowledge and enthusiasm for making violins.

Many thanks

[famuswood]

I think I can reduce the thickness of the rough cut heel by about 2-3mm and end up with a distance from nut joint to top of the upper bout and end up with 130mm. I should still have enough thickness to carve a proper finished heel. I still will have the issue of a couple of extra millimeters from head to heel. The only other solution I can imagine is to add wood to the front of the heel and recarve it. Do these ideas sound reasonable? Has anyone had this problem and found a way to solve it?

Thanks very much

[woodwiz]

[rs]

Thank you, Woodwiz.

Probably the best way is for me to send you one to see and play. This way you can try it out in your privacy and let me know what you think, like or dislike. Or, if you prefer, I can meet you in either St. Louis or Kansas City when and if you are there. I live closest to KC, but I do travel to St. Louis for clients.

I always appreciate feedback. I intend to have one finished for this around the end of January. E-mail if you would like.

Best wishes
_________________
Randall Shenefelt

[John Cadd]

famuswood I can remember the nervous first stage of gathering all these measurements together. Have you done what helped me and drawn a full scale longways cross-section of your violin plan? (ie top to bottom).
Include scroll (with peg holes ) strings, nut,fingerboard,bridge,"sound post",and accurate belly and back curves.Don`t forget the neck curves.
You may be better relying on sound carpentry for the neck rather than taking the cosmetic route.You could use a splice and keep the original wood in use.Try the angles used in a scroll (pegbox ) join.You are going to keep the neck straight and even if visible it will not look unsightly.
Who sells their first one anyway? Good Luck.

[famuswood]

Amezcua:

Thanks for your comments. I have learned so much during this first violin attempt. The violin I think looks pretty good from a woodworking standpoint. I now have the neck attached at about the right position for the violin body I created. I'm starting to learn about relationships and how critical they are. For example, the front C bout arch affects how far back the neck tilts to get to the proper fingerboard elevation. Regarding the neck length, I do now have 130 millimeters from nut to top. I have seen what I could have done differently. When I was using the Ossman book it caused me to look elsewhere for answers to questions that had been omitted. I am a detail type person. That unfortunate book lead to some major problems for anyone interested in developing skill in the art of violin making. Still, I can take what I've learned from good books and people like you who are willing to share their "done that, been there" experiences. As I may have said in a previous post - My next violin will definitely be approached with my eyes opened much wider. Thanks again!

[John Cadd]

Famuswood My way is --if I read several times that Heifetz recommended slow practice for fast pieces ,well then ,I pass it on to somebody new. That`s helpful .I like to do that. The internet is a goldmine for new makers even just on this one site.
You have made me think now. When you copy or trace anything there is always a possible shift in size if you are not careful.A pencil can add a fraction all round. I imagine only a hot shot laser system will pinpoint everything exactly. My first scroll seems too tight .I wouldn`t say small but visually I did something when I made the pinpoint marks and went more one way than the other.It`s done now .
Paper ,being a product of wood, can start changing size as well.
The real experts on this forum will see things in an instant that will take ages to learn.
Do you ever use the perspective lines trick to help visualise.
Mark the measurements on a straight line.Draw a line (horizontal) from the centre at right angles to the "vanishing point".any reduction (ie another shorter version ) will be a vertical line closer to the vanishing point. I did that to make an ultra short practice "skeleton".I used that for some ridiculously wide chords I was trying.

[famuswood]

I don't know anything about "perspectives line trick". Is there a site you would recommend that goes into detail about it? Regarding line measurements - I don't think I would blame myself for not following lines exactly because I tried to be careful in that department. I generally mark cutting points with sharp pointed carving knives. What I didn't realize was to be aware of critical violin measurements. The book I used initially paid precious little attention to them. I trusted drawings I shouldn't have trusted. Regarding scrolls: I used too big and one improperly placed pin hole when I marked my scroll for cutting. I didn't have a problem until the very top of the volute on one side where I ended up having to fill a pinhole that was exposed. A small but annoying blemish. I think I can hide it pretty easily with varnish.

[John Cadd]

famuswood
The perspective trick is easy to work out.I expect you could find a site with tips like that.
Just draw one line horizontal in the centre of the page.
Draw two verticals ,one left and one centre.On the left make a few random marks.Connect the marks to the end of the horizontal line.( one point on the right side)
Now the centre line (vertical )will have a smaller proportional version of the left side marks. See? Like that.It`s mathematics in a usable form.
You can do a similar trick with a calculator.Use the divide and memory buttons to reduce the scale .You can get very accurate results with very awkward changes in proportion.Imagine you wanted everything to be 5 / 7 ths of the original.
So the important figures to always remember are
130-mms-nut to edge 195mms edge to bridge
and 112---114 mms between neck curves
If you wanted a proportion, the "fraction " 130/195 would be entered in the memory of your calculator.
The first replacement belly I made to a violin I used the Strad ,Heron Allen drawing and the 195 is exactly level with the right side
nick.
The players hand will adapt to those proportions as he learns to play.There is very little conscious thinking involved in this type of movement.I am sure the brain has an important area that connects this proportional movement of the hand with the way you judge the flight of a ball,or judge distance by eye.
There was an interview with a man whose blindness was cured as an adult.He had never been able to see before and had no way to interpret distance ,faces or anything he saw.He wished he had remained blind. That`s a sobering thought.
These measurements are one of the most awkward to connect up if you ever use the Heron Allen book.That`s not a recommendation to use his book by the way. Not for important practical purposes.
His book is very like a primitive web site.Contributions from lots of sources which would be awkward to edit.(And awkward to read).
If you ever do any electronics construction you sometimes get a feeling something`s not right but you can`t pin down what it is. That feeling turns out to be very reliable. I had that feeling with just these measurements in the early days.
One more connected bit.
The curve near the scroll that players rely on for first position was not so good for me.My hands are a bit small and recently I have been using a stick on plastic buffer to give me a good fourth finger placing in first position.This makes a full size instrument very easy to play. I feel sad that it took me so long to realise this.

[Geemac]

33 cm from nut to bridge
_________________
GeeMac