Violin Forum/Message Board

[CT Dolan]

rs, thank you for taking the time to share your experience. What you have to say makes a lot of sense, and the explanation given was very well stated.

Thanks again,
Chris

[rs]

You are each certainly welcome.

The explanations I gave were the result of trying to make sense of what I was observing.

I started out playing the fiddle when I turned 20. Within a year, I was consumed with the instrument and why they function as they do. What I found was a lot different than what I had anticipated.

I started by buying junk fiddles and taking them apart and reconstructing them. As this was time consuming in method, I shortened my approach by trying to fix some of the problems they had in tone from the OUTSIDE only. Naturally, this meant the varnish had to go! But as these were junkers anyway, their loss was no loss to the music world. This is when I discovered the observation noted about flamed maple. I found that junkers with flamed backs tended to sound "lower" than junkers with clear backs. When I thinned them a bit, the problem was remedied greatly. The explanation fiven in the previous post was the conclusion I drew from observation, that is, to answer what I had already observed.

I then found that if I got the fiddle the way I wanted it to sound in the white, the addition of varnish damaged the tone. I concluded it was the varnish that had done this and found that it was the weight of the varnish that had done so. To remedy this, I then tried removing more wood from the fiddle AFTER I had gotten the tone where I wanted it. This wood loss compensated for the varnish gain and the tone was saved. This lesson greatly helped me.

Tuning a back was best done after the instrument was strung up, I also discovered. As this is a subject all to itself, and as this is an art that may not be possible to quantify, I will simply say that if a maker makes his necessary adjustment to the back while the fiddle is in the white and the strings are attached and fully operational, he will be astounded at how rapidly and thoroughly he can bring his back into adjustment. This is because the back must at all times compliment the top, never compete with it. This complimentary action is best uncovered and implemented when the back and top are fully operational.

The final observation on the uniformity of the top is to me the anchor of the instrument. I am NOT talking about uniform thickness, although that helps, but it is not necessary. This is what separates the great fiddles from the common or downright bad ones. Two observations on this that may help. One is that the top can be adjusted in the white while the strings are fully operational. Second that each tree ring in the top is of slightly different density than the adjacent counterparts. If this is noted and corrected while the top plate is being made, the uniformity of tone across ALL registers will become astounding. As this is also an art, I will save expalantion.

In short, the three things I mentioned have greatly aided me in my approach to find a fiddle that has sock.

Best wishes and hope this helps

[Roger Hill]

Very interesting ideas,rs. Would you give us a little more discussion of how you get the back to "compliment" the top? Thanks,

Roger Hill

[rs]

That is an interesting question, Roger. The reason it is interesting is that I spent years working on these techniques and part of me wants to keep them as a "trade secret" and part of me wants to share them, if that makes any sense. I am still struggling as a maker/restorer and it is my sole means of support at this time.

The approach is rather straightforward. To complement the top, the back assumes a responsive role. By strict definition, therefore, the back can only be tuned properly when it is moving in response to an already active top. Therefore, I found, that the initial tuning of the back plate while I am making it, is only a guestimate of what I eventually will need. I know through experience that if the the spring constant is low for the back wood that I need to increase the arch and thin the plate just a bit more than if the spring constant is high. So when I cut the back, I simply use a sample piece I cut from the same wood and dress it to the thickness of about 1 mm. I then see how much force it takes to bend or deflect the wood. I use this observation to determine how much arch I want and graduation I will choose. This I garner through experience, comparing the action to other wood I have used in the past and not through formula.

The tuning of a back to complement the top can be done several ways, I suppose. What I ended up choosing was a method I stumbled into years ago.

Here is how it works:

It is probably most helpful if a maker would simply recreate my steps. This way, he could learn for himself and not simply through reading.

Junker violins are easy to come by. They only sometimes have value, and are junkers because nobody wants to play them. Generally, any serious maker (by serious I mean amateurs as well. This means people more interested in the art than in the buck) has a few lying around which he has acquired over time. If not, he can buy one on e-bay for around $50 or so. It will most certainly sound bad, as good sounding fiddles are a VERY rare commodity.

This fiddle he must now sacrifice to knowledge.

Naturally, this approach is designed to help the maker learn. I use an entirely different approach to reconstructing violins of value as the varnish MUST not be disturbed on these, needless to say. As that is a different story, I will not continue on that road. But the knowledge gleaned from the following will greatly help the astute improve on the work of reconstructing pre-existing fiddles.

Start by stringing up the fiddle and playing it across all registers. Note the good notes (if any are found) as well as the bad. The best place to do so is a room with a good wood floor. When you are satisfied you can note its weaknesses and strengths, take it to your shop and remove the top.

Using calipers, assess the uniformity in thickness (or more than likely, the lack thereof) of the top plate. Make a map of the top plate and its thicknesses because you will need this later.

The first goal is to make the top uniform from rib to rib in every direction. Uniform in thickness is not enough, and in reality is not always desired, as each ring in the plate is different fom the other. I have developed a couple of methods for ascertaining these variances and may share those at a future time. Regardless, the way this is done is secondary. The primary goal is uniformity. I was surprised to discover this to be the most important feature of the top. Thickness and arching are less important than uniformity, I discovered. But thickness and arching ARE important. The finest tops follow these sequences:

1) Are uniform
2) Are arched according to the spring constant of the spruce (just like we talked about with the maple back)
3) Are thinned to as thin as possible without being too thin. If the top plate is too heavy for the arching, the response will be a little slow and will not capture the "ring" desired. If too thin, it will drop out when dynamics are needed. You can see why the old makers warned about making the tops too thin. It can always be made thinner, but it is very hard to make it thicker!

More than likely, the bass bar will need to exit to accomplish the above. If not, that's ok also. Once the above is done, replace the bar if needed and glue the top back on to the corpse.

String up the fiddle and play again.

More than likely, the tone, good or bad at least will now be consistant. This means that the variance of tone from good notes to bad will be greatly diminshed. Flabby notes kill a fiddle and this is the reason the above step must be taken. Uniform tops produce uniform sound.

With the fiddle still strung-up, the back is now tuned.

My recommendation is that a maker experiment on this feature with a set of good scrapers. As I work the scraper over the back, I can "feel" which part of the back needs to be removed and which part not so much. Naturally the varnish will start coming off. As this instrument is to be sacrificed, this is no loss.

This observation is VERY important: I found that with the fiddle strung and ready to play, the back naturally responds to the scraper where it needs to. Once the tuning is complete, the scraper will have a uniform feel to it. This feel is acquired, but this feel is VERY important to the end result.

At this point, the strings are still on and ready to play. The maker should now play the fiddle and note what he likes and what he does not. He can make adjustments to the tone by using his scraper again. I have a whole repertoire of approaches to this step. It is probably just as easy to try it yourself and experiment on it.

Once the fiddle is properly tuned front and back, this fiddle is in the white and can be taken to a level of very fine tone.

At this point, if varnished, the tone will be lost. The best remedy to that dilemma is to remove wood on top and back until the tone is metallic in nature. The weight of the varnish will restore the tone.

There is MUCH more that could be said, but this is an overview.

Keep in mind we are after a fiddle that ROCKS, has instant response, a clear ring and can be felt as it is is played. If it doesn't, it is second class, I think. The above is the result of A LOT of hard work. But the truth is, is invaluable to attaining a fiddle that even the finest artist wants to play.

Best wishes and hope this helps

[Roger Hill]

Thanks, rs. A lot to think about there. Will Start on my "Romanian Strad" and play with these ideas a bit.

Roger Hill

[CT Dolan]

Yes, thank you indeed. I'm going to have to give this some time to digest.

I am one who believes in there being just reward for grace, and I sincerely hope you earn yours with what you have chosen to share with us here. Thank you again.

Take care,
Chris

[Andres Sender]

This thread has been a striking lesson in human nature.

[John Cadd]

Thankyou rs for some excellent insights. I hope I don`t upset people by starting these topics.It seems the whole purpose of having a violin site.
By the way ,how many makers are also players and if you sell a good violin how much contact do you have once it`s gone?
Judging by the fantastic quality of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra I would think Michael Darnton is in a very enviable position.
I used the word tapering instead of thicknessing to better visualise what I was getting at. I was picturing a slice,a cross section.
Everyone has been on at me for making a paltry 6 only instruments but I was very surprised once to read that the famous Herron-Allen only made one. One! His book could be compared to these messages. Information drawn in from many different sources.
Questions keep the site alive.
About the bridge movement ; The bass foot can move in a totally different way to the treble foot at the same time.That`s one of the cleverest features of this little component.The sounpost is also doing a support job and at the same time passing vibrations to the back and also receiving vibrations from the back.
You all know this but a newcomer one day may not know it so I have spelled it out. Who knows how long these messages will be here?

[John Cadd]

rs
Your fascinating technique will make many players eager to try your violins.It`s as if you have created a new field of violin making.
Have you ever glued on shavings of wood to increase the thickness at all?

[Janito]

I have be mulling over the 'RS Method' for several days.

The essence of of the method, worded differently, is that the violin corpus is being modified to optimise the sound from one particular combination of bridge-post-etc setup.

Nothing wrong with that, but, unfortunately, not everyone is very good at bridge-post-etc setup (in the white), so the corpus modifications could progress to a suboptimal point, if the setup is not great.

RS - are your instruments used for fiddling in small rooms or played with mikes or are they used for classical performance?
I ask this because violins can work well under some circumstances, but not others.

[Michael Darnton]

The thing I'm having a problem with is the concept that there's one "right" way for a violin to sound and act. Several of the things that have been proposed in this thread lead to results that the posters think are good that I've spent years trying to get away from.

[Roger Hill]

c'mon, Michael. You're being as evasive as rs talking about "complimentary" between front and back. Tell us in plain language what you mean.

[Michael Darnton]

In this conversation, I feel a lot better standing on the sidelines.

[mr_violin]

rRS

I have to say you have my intrest. Im trying to learn all I can about how to get the most out of a cheep violin. I bought about 50 chines violins and 25 old broken violins off ebay. I just wanted to try to improve them.

The one thing I have to tell you is that you are way to vage for me to get much out what your saying.

also how can you say the top should be uniform and you even said it is best if it is uniform in thickness.???????

That is not the most common way to make a top.

you leave me with more questions that ansers. you said it was an art. in that case I think someone would have to be theer to whach you do it.

also: Michael Darnton, I wish you could tell me if in my case you think any of "RS" ideas are worth me trying. ( I know you wanted to stay out of this one ,but a lot of poeple value your opinoin.)

I am just a beginner at this ,and at age 54 I don`t have time to go off on wiled goose chases.

I would be happy for any others to advise me on this too.

[John Cadd]

See the books by Heronallen and Simone Sacconi.