Violin Forum/Message Board

waynebergman · Junior Member Joined: 05 Mar 2009 Posts: 8

Just started my first violin a few weeks back. I have built an electric solid body guitar before but this will be my first violin. My question is regarding the choice of wood for my belly. I have some nice maple for the back and neck. I would like to use local wood here on the Sunshine Coast of BC where I live so thinking about Cedar. Is this an ok choice. I am following the book by Bruce Ossman titled "Violin Making a guide for the amateur".
If any one is interested the web address below shows some pictures I have posted on a site that I post this and other project pictures on. Thanks in advance ....wayne

http://picasaweb.google.com/waynebergman/WayneSProjectWorld#

MANFIO · Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 6:28 am Post subject:

Well, I would use spruce....

Simeon Chambers is a nice guy to deal with. His wood is decades old. Some tops are for "practice" and cost just 12 bucks, here:

http://stores.ebay.com/Simeon-Chambers-Tonewood-Store_Violin-Tops-2-Piece_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQfsubZ8QQftidZ2QQtZkm

He also offers one piece tops so that you don't have to make that tricky center joint.
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/7875988@N02/with/464604020/

Andres Sender · Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:26 pm Post subject:

Michael Darnton has mentioned that cedar is a disastrous wood for full-sized violins.

The 'Making a Viola' sequence at his site will help as something of an antidote to the Ossman book. Wink

http://www.darntonviolins.com/violinmaking.php

Geemac · Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:42 am Post subject:

Hi. I have made a couple of electric guitars and six violins. When I began making the violins I used knot free pieces of spruce fence board. The grain is 90 degrees off but it made good practice and after completion I used them to practice my varnishing. Then I just hung them on the shop wall for ambience. The cedar in BC is, generally speaking, very straight grained, somewhat knot free and easy to carve. For your first attempt it would be just fine. Even some of the old masters from a few centuries back used cedar for a violin top from time to time. So, just go ahead and enjoy the making of a violin. But, cedar slivers can cause infection, so take care. I find my spruce by going over to the local sawmill. I look for tight grained old ten by ten blocks of spruce that have no knots showing. I get a four foot piece for about sixteen loonies. I take it home and split it in 'pie slice' style pieces from around the heartwood. Splitting it this way will give you quarter sawn spruce with the grain just the way it should be for making a violin. Keep having fun.
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Becky · Senior Member Joined: 09 Apr 2007 Posts: 83

I don't know about cedar and violins, but I was just introduced to a cedar top guitar thought it was similar enough to a violin to comment my experience with it. Before buying it, we tried out many many guitars and could always tell just from hearing them which ones had a cedar top. The cedar consistently gave a sound we loved. The big drawback to the cedar tops (as far as the guitar reviews and our experience with it go) is that they get scratched and dented very easily--scarely any pressure can leave a mark that will stay. Even knowing that though, the sound the cedar gave made it worth it to buy it.

Michael Darnton · Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:33 pm Post subject:

Violins aren't guitars.

I've never seen a really good sounding violin with a cedar top, nor have I ever seen a violin by any of the great makers with a cedar top. Most commonly they were used by copyists in the 1800s--George Wulme Hudson used them, for instance--because the dark color helps in antiquing.

From my experience with them, which includes making several cedar-top violins, you can count on losing about 15-20% of the sound quality of a regular spruce top, in the direction of a thin, strident tone without much body. I've replaced two of my own cedar tops with spruce, with a definite improvement both times. If the other cedar tops break, they'll be replaced with spruce, too.

CT Dolan · Member Joined: 29 Jun 2008 Posts: 143

"Violins aren't guitars." - You've got that right!

I used to play classical (and other) guitars, and in my experience with classical guitars a cedar top gives a more open, if less refined sound. Some prefer it, while others don't. Regardless, a few makers of very good classical guitars (such as Ignacio Fleta...who was a trained violin maker and began his career making violins and cellos) have used cedar a lot and to good effect, but they were doing it for a specific reason as they were after a specific (generally bigger) sound, and it worked alright with their design (I should mention that, among guitar makers, designs vary widely and are not nearly as uniform as with violins). Most makers of the classical guitar, however, have stuck with spruce, which has always been my preference in a guitar top as well. With regard to the violin, though, I cannot see it as even being a question.

Becky · Senior Member Joined: 09 Apr 2007 Posts: 83

My apologies. My intent was not to imply violins and guitars are the same. All I meant to do was offer my experience with cedar when used acoustically. From what I'm seeing now, I guess cedar doesn't always have the same acoustic result.
Incidentally, (and not to start an argument about cedar I know nothing about its effect on violins and am merely curious) I just read an article in an old Strings magazine about a violin maker named Anne Cole. Her instruments are used by professionals, they had good reviews, and some have cedar tops. Just wondering if you had any thoughts on that. Here's the link to her site: http://www.annecoleviolinmaker.com/index.html

CT Dolan · Member Joined: 29 Jun 2008 Posts: 143

No apologies needed, my friend. A very good maker might be able to make a decent violin out of cedar, but in my opinion the result will always be better (have more character) with spruce. The same happens with guitars. Cedar tops do sometimes result in a more loud instrument (notice that I said "more loud"...no acoustic guitar has anything near the power of a violin), but the character of the sound always seems less. At least this has been my experience with cedar-top guitars (but, I have never played any of the really, really good ones).

While on the subject, however, I'd also like to say that in my opinion, classical (Spanish) guitars have no real place on the stage with an orchestra. Segovia has to be given much respect for how far he took the instrument, but in my opinion he took it to a place where it never really belonged (on stage with an orchestra). To my way of thinking, it belongs on the small stage, in a quiet setting, or before friends. Sorry, off the subject I know, but a guitar and a violin really are two very different instruments.

Michael Darnton · Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:41 am Post subject:

That would be my problem with cedar in violins, too. It reacts well and loudly, but the tone is thin and less interesting, and, most importantly, doesn't get any better than that.

fyoder · Junior Member Joined: 05 Aug 2010 Posts: 9

If one were looking at the underside of a top, how would one know if it was cedar or spruce? Being a neophyte with regard to such things, I would assume it was spruce simply because that's what violin tops are made of, but apparently that's not always the case.

Geemac · Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:21 pm Post subject:

Spruce and Cedar have different odors. Once you smell cedar, you'll never forget it.
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fyoder · Junior Member Joined: 05 Aug 2010 Posts: 9

I'm repairing an old fiddle in poor condition, especially the top. I don't detect any smell. But in order to repair the bass bar cracks I had to shave off the carved bass bar, so there's a strip of newly exposed wood, and it's got a reddish tone. I'm using some spruce from Simeon Chambers for cleating, and it's very pale. The contrast is notable.

Is all spruce this whitish colour, or does it have various tints? Would age effect colour throughout, not just on the surface?