Violin Forum/Message Board

[John Cadd]

Chinrests are chosen for comfort mostly and the way they combine with a shoulder rest .
If you want to play without a shoulder rest there is a mechanical aspect to think about that may help .
When you hold a violin neck in playing position without using the bow just become aware of which way the violin tries to fall .The neck is safe in your relaxed hand and if you raise your chin there is not much to stop the violin moving downwards.But watch the direction it moves .Not straight down . It wants to rotate around your hand and slide sideways .If your chinrest surface is parrallel to the violin back you can still keep the violin in place for a while. The parrallel shape does not create any resistance apart from skin on chinrest friction .
If the chinrest left side is higher than the right side the violin plus chinrest combination forms a Wedge that will prevent the violin rotation across your body.Now any chin/jaw movement will tend to nudge the violin back into a safe position over the collarbone. The downward pressure on the chinrest does not need to be a Grip .It becomes a safe and almost passive control that needs only a little practice and adjustment.
The jawbone helps if the chinrest edge allows a hooking action for shifting downwards to stop the violin pulling away from you .
So two actions to be aware of .Pulling Resistance and a Passive Wedge .
Try to get a chinrest that suits your jawbone to collarbone gap and avoid a chinrest that slopes upwards from left to right .

[John Cadd]

Watch Nathan Milstein playing Paganiniana and you can test my theory about this.You see at the beginning ,before playing he lifts the side of his jacket to arrange some kind of pad beneath the surface .
Watch the film at 1/4 speed to look for head and chin movements .He does a number of adjustments which also allow the violin to be tilted to play the G string(head down with the left side of the chinrest below his ear ) and lifts his head and turns sideways for the E string.
Many chinrests have a ridge nearest the neck to help the jawbone to prevent pulling away when shifting down.A very flat chinrest forces the player to grip harder which pushes the violin down.
Try to isolate what each force will do if the violin is slippery .
Any grippy shoulder material will make the Milstein method more difficult .The violin needs to be gently pushed back onto the collarbone ocassionally using your chin/jaw skin. If necessary lift your head and place the chin further right to pull the violin back up again . That happens a few times in the film .
As long as the "Skin to Chinrest" friction is greater than "Violin Back to Shoulder Clothing " the method should work. But it will need to be a careful transition for many players who have to switch off the clamping forces from your neck .
Think about the gap between collarbone and chin/jaw.The chin/jaw area runs from the tip of your chin ---back to the point beneath your ear .
Work out what that gap is by testing with a few books or paperbacks.You will be able to find the healthy thickness of a chinrest that way. Then organise a chinrest that cannot slide through that gap because the left side is higher.That needs no head pressure to feel the secure hold it will allow . Then practice to make it look casual and confident .

[John Cadd]

Th first thing you need to do is buy the chinrest.One bad habit with sellers is sending the wooden part undrilled.Are we all professional luthiers now? How easy is it to clamp an awkward shape like a chinrest in a vice to keep it still while the holes are drilled. I received a chinrest with 2 holes already drilled and you could see 2 pencil lines marking the positions intended. The right side was on the line.The left hole was off to one sideso the width of the bottom bracket would not line up without some metal bending . A new hole was needed but it was too close to the "wrong" hole.That needed to be filled with some ebony from a collection of worn out pegs I still have . So that fiddly job was done with superglue. I had to start the new hole with smaller pilot holes to keep it accurate .Then the metal bracket parts had to be positioned without blocking the threaded sections with glue . The chinrest was not supplied with any cork protection so I used some leather and superglue for that . Right. Ready to go . Gently positioning the masterpiece over the tailpiece I wound the adjusters up till it began to settle itself .When the gentle pressure started to clamp I kept an eye on the surface contact .Then noticed the metal brackets start to lean backwards with only gentle pressure. The chinrest wood began to rise and where the base areas should have settled flat on the belly they were only touching at the outer edges and tilting up .The substandard threads allowed to much slop and the violin edge outside the purfling was getting all the pressure. If this was made in China I would not be surprised. I still have plenty of prejudice about mechanical accuracy from China. It used to be mainly against their electrical goods .
Now I have ordered some new brackets that have a 90 degree turned section with countersunk holes .The brackets are 2 separate pieces but the screw holes will fix the wooden part securely with screws pointing away from the belly .
But that is about 6 faults in one item. It looked very good and well made in the packet .How do young kids manage when they want to find a chinrest that fits? Most sellers don`t tell you how thick the wooden part is . That should be the very first thing to know .

[John Cadd]

I bought an over the tailpiece rest and soonnrealised my neck does not reach that far . I cut it down to reduce the depth and sawed off the part crossing the tailpiece. I used a pair of separate clamps which fasten the wood with small screws pointing away from the belly.
Keeping the bottom of the rest clear of the belly is tricky if you want a 2 / 3mm clearance .
Trying to get a relaxed (like Milstein ) position was coming closer. There was very little hooking shape under the chin.
Mostly I could feel the jawbone catching the edge of the rest .I may remove it and do some serious filing to allow for the jaw bonewhile keeping the part left touching my cheek . I could also flatten a section on the right side edge and glue on some ebony to make a hook for the chin. That will be behind the jawbone /chin .So there are a number of functions the chinrest can perform within that piece of shiny wood .It`s not all one thing .
If it all goes wrong I can start from scratch and make one myself .
Why have no famous players described all this to help new players and ones who developed habits as children that no longer apply as adults ?

[John Cadd]

Duplication

[John Cadd]

The collarbone gets mentioned frequently but what will touch the collarbone? A sharp ,hard corner of a violin with some metal brackets to make it more painful .If you see the Milstein Paganiniana at 1/4 speed and before he plays you see his secret revealed. He lifts his jacket and there is something like a lump of foam just big enough to wash a car.
The foam creates a pad to keep up the violin.Any pad will do that job .
The pad was the missing link. That is element number 3. The elements 1 and 2 are easier to explain.
Number 1 is some part of the chinrest needs to be a hook to stop the violin pulling away from you .Often it`s the bulge of wood riding over the tailpiece.
That may be an accidental part of the design .Many players let their chins work across that area and you wonder why the chinrest itself is not being used.
Number 2 is the left side of the chinrest which stops the violin sliding to the right.
I have a short neck so I had to reduce the chinrest thickness to fit the gap under my chin. Do all the position checks while you look straight ahead as if playing in an orchestra and reading the music .
Now we come to the position checks for the violin itself. I hope you are taking notes here . Looking straight ahead ,facing a (vertical ) mirror you can estimate what the tilt angle of the violin is.Is that your ideal angle for all bowing movements or is it forced on you by a shoulder rest? Try it with and without a shoulder rest. The best position for all strings is what you need .Too much sideways tilt (of the violin) will make the E string difficult .
The angle of you jawbone can be worked out looking in the mirror . Hold a straight object like a ruler against bottom of your jaw .Remember what that angle looks like. Mark it on the mirror if you use lipstick .
Compare that angle with the violin angle under your chin.If you remove the shoulder rest you may feel some uncomfortable pressure on the collarbone. That`s where Nathan Milstein comes in. I don`t think he plays with the violin pressing on the collarbone.I think he has the bottom edge of the violin just underneath the bone--where the foam pad is placed under his jacket.
Any soft support there will combine with the two elements mentioned before.
You just need to hide some small pad just below the collarbone ,which feels more like your chest.Milstein could play his violin with the instrument half way down his chest.
If you do not have any hook effect on your chinrest you can change position (playing ) by bending the wrist bacwards and the wrist will support the violin while the fingers drop down to a lower position . That is not a recommended way officially but Milstein uses that now and then ,mainly to reposition the body of the violin .
I adjusted my ebony chinrest by gluing an ebony bump where there is a soft patch under the chininside where the bone is .It needed carving to remove sharp edges and blending to be comfortable. That bump was just less than one centimetre thick and outside the jawbone line.
A very gory example of that soft patch was seen in a bullfight in Spain. The Matador got a bit too close to the Bull. The sharp horn jerked upwards and the tip of the horn ran up under his jaw and out through his mouth . So now you know where I mean .
The left side of the chinrest was marked to show where it was not touching my face . That gave a small area to file flat and glue on another ebony bump . That was shaped and smoothed to be comfortable . It stops any sliding to the right .
If you wanted a pair of Bespoke Shoes the maker would carefully make a wooden mold to copy your foot /feet shapes . All the complicated cutting and stitching would conform to the original feet .Both are different . There are no Bespoke Chinrest makers near me ,sadly .

[John Cadd]

The control of violin tilting helps with bowing .You can see how Milstein does that in Paganiniana .Standing upright with chest out the violin comes up much flatter which helps the E string. The opposite for the G string is to lower the head and flatten the chest.That makes the violin tilt sideways .
I am not sure if that works with shoulder rests .It depends on the chest position mainly which has no connection with the outer shoulder .

[John Cadd]

Today I went back to an old violin product that seems to have disappeared . It`s a pad that hangs from the chinrest and sits under the violin . I think shoulder rests must have destroyed the market for these.They were usually covered in corduroy .I had a red one .
I made one with black leather to form a pocket or pouch.Inside it I pushes some rolled up felt . It`s possible to push the felt into different shapes and is more useful than foam rubber.Foam gives way too easily and refuses to adapt it`s shape . The pad contact on the violin back was mainly where the end block is.No more than one inch in from the edge. There is a chinrest on sale which combines with a rubbery pad below the violin . That was shown on Maestronet . I would find that too much for my short neck but the idea is good .
Everybody has a different shape and the pad needs to adapt to that and stay in that shape .
The pad plus chinrest worked very well for a first try . It hangs around the chinrest which is side mounted. I don`t need to tie or untie anything ,it just loops over and fits .I can play from first position ,up to third position and down again repeatedly without any difficulty.
I was expecting the attached pad to react badly but nothing went wrong . I did not feel any need to push my shoulder up .

[Michael Darnton]

The modern equivalent is red cosmetics application sponges. They're about a half inch thick, but you can stack them. Rubber band it in place, or you can coat one surface with rubber cement and let it dry for a couple of weeks and t will stick on it own without harming the varnish.

https://www.amazon.com/Fantasea-Extra-Thick-Cosmetic-Sponge/dp/B000NJ00DK/
_________________
new blog at my site! http://darntonviolins.com/blog
my work sites: http://darntonviolins.com and http://darntonhersh.com

[John Cadd]

For a real bespoke fitting there is a fairly new material called Foam Clay. If that is pushed into the pocket and adjusted it will set as it dries out . You can shape it some more after it sets or adjust it half way through setting . The pad supporting the violin can be arranged to minimise contact with the violin back and maximise how much it touches the player .
Worth experimenting with .
The shape of a violin rest might be very accurate if you added this to a flat base. Try not to choose bright pink.

[John Cadd]

Artificial Intelligence is useful for violin topics as there are so many articles in print going back several years .
Try this question and see what AI suggests ; "Most painful parts of violin playing ?"
AI does a good job of listing several aspects . Some have a vague wishy washy vagueness which you cannot claim are real answers .
The worst part of holding a violin is the interface between the Bottom Edge of a violin and the Collarbone.
Most solutions are ways to minimise that interface .
The AI surface description of a chinrest is very good. Contrast that with the numerous manufactured models that ignore the good AI advice. AI mentions the hills and valleys to keep a violin in position but does not specifically mention changing positions and the violin pulling away if the shape is too flat. That is one cause of tension in the neck.
I am working on sorting out the collarbone to violin bottom edge at the moment.
Some players have a balancing act where the violin does not contact the neck.It rotates on a shoulder rest pivot and a light chinrest contact . That is an original way to get round the problem .

[John Cadd]

One thing to avoid or not to aim at is how to hold a violin in playing position without your left hand.That is a pointless standard to aim at. It is possible to tune the strings with the left hand on the pegs. The fine tuner on the E string while bowing is more awkward . My teacher would put his foot on the corner of a chair and rest the scroll on his knee but he could sort out the A string peg standing up which is a bit of a twist with some school violins.

[John Cadd]

I ordered some Foam Clay yesterday and here it is already.The packet shows it`s flexibility .The volume is about the size of 2 mobile phones. I don`t know how sticky it is so i might test it with thin cotton cloth .It needs to air dry so any plastic will stop that happening .Rather than makeup foam this will remain in the shape needed and will not start fighting me .I made a leather pocket to contain the pad ,then opened it up to leave two leather surfaces hanging down. It needs to fit like a wedge of cheese between my chest and the violin. It will only need about 1.5ounces .This packet will make two pads. After it sets it can be sculpted to touch the violin in the best places.It will be firm yet squishy. Squishy is firmer than squashy .
I think what will keep it in place will be the shape resting on my chest . I will probably refit the chinrest brackets . They have a pair of separate bracket hooks designed to annoy my collarbone. If I fit them as far apart as I can it will give me a fractional clearance at the bottom edge.
I just thought a patch of velcro on my shirt might work with this.Look up Quiet Velcro .

[John Cadd]

Here is an adaptable solution.AliExpress are selling magnetic sheets.It`s flexible and you could stitch some cloth with a button hole to fix on a shirt . Not All of it .Don`t go raving mad .The second piece would be on the pad. It must be made to fix to itself . For £2.67 for a 6inch x 4 inch piece would get you a modern violin support .
A violin needs three elements to make it stay in place. This will be a good fourth element. Side to side,front to back ,top to bottom and some sticky magnetism .
AI said one strange thing .It claims that side mounted chinrests are the most common type . Is that out of date now?

[John Cadd]

This topic is basically live as I am learning myself by working through different ideas. I often start a topic and explore as I go .Experiments as we speak is the way I do it .
Reddit has questions about chinrests and how the subject has not been discussed enough inside China . That makes many new players think the discomfort of over the tailpiece chinrests is part of the suffering you need to learn a violin .