Violin Forum/Message Board

antonio · Member Joined: 21 Sep 2008 Posts: 27 Location: Croatia

Hi, I'm interested in your opinions, what is the best thickness of top and bottom plates for violin. Everywhere I find different patterns, for example, I have Bruce Ossman's Violin Making book (Guide for the amateurs) which is very much different than the one I found on the website by David Langsather of Salem, Oregon, USA
http://www.dalemfg.com/violin_011.htm
Which one is better, and, please if someone has patterns ready to print, I would be gratefull if you sent it to me, both top and bottom plate. I have stradivarius templates, I think.
Are these David Langsather's plans better than these Ossman's? I think they are less thick. Is it wise to try to draw them approximately by hand just by watching the picture on the web?
And one more question... I have Titebond hide glue? would you suggest it or not?

Michael Darnton · Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:42 pm Post subject:

This is one of those ten-foot pole questions.

I would make the top about 3.0mm thick, except where it has to get thicker gently as it approaches the edges, and make the back 4.5mm at the narrowest spot, down evenly and gradually to half that in the upper and lower bouts. It won't hurt to leave a little extra down the center of the bak--just a couple of tenths--where it starts to get below 3.0mm--to help the back seam stay glued.

Hot hide glue, not the bottled type. Always hot hide glue. NEVER anything else!
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antonio · Member Joined: 21 Sep 2008 Posts: 27 Location: Croatia

ok. Thanks! How many grams of hide glue I need for whole violin?
And, can I heat the glue more than once, and use it after each melting? Or I need to make just the amount I need?

ctviolin · Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:33 pm Post subject: Re: hide glue

polkat · Member Joined: 16 Aug 2012 Posts: 32

And in case you are wondering, liquid hide glue (bottled) creeps! It's due primarily to additives and other junk they put in it to keep it liquid. When I started making violins, I used it, not being aware of any troubles with it. One HOT summer day shortly after I made my first, I was on the couch watching TV (something I excel at). The violin was hanging on a wall next to an open window. As I watched I heard a ticking sound and looked over at the violin.
For the next half hour, I watched that violin fall off the wall in pieces. An extreme story for sure, but it happened.

Don't save that bottle for anything else. Just chuck it!

John Cadd · Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 7:08 am Post subject: Plate graduation

I think the most important tip for graduations is to avoid going too thin.Generally it will make a Loud violin which is hard to play Quietly . Make a violin that has no bad habits like a motorcycle with a huge power band that wants to throw you off .Let the musician be in control . One note about Amati violins was the plates were generally even all over .That came from the Hill family experts . Does that give us a clue ? I don`t really know . In a Strad poster you will see a few dips with very thin wood (was there a reason ?) but you will seldom or never see any bumps .Bumps are easy to plane flat. Not so easy to fill in a dip.Even if the dip was an accident. So dips are not worth copying. I don`t think so .

John Cadd · Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:12 am Post subject: Plate graduation

For newcomers to Hot Hide glue the fear of warming anything up seems to be a common theme. The best glue temperature is the same as a fresh cup of tea when you can drink it comfortably. If I mention coffee you will automatically think of a superheated cup which will put you in hospital when you spill it in your lap . Ready to drink right now is best . Check it with a thermometer . Don`t drink the glue .
What kind of thermometer? Ask for one in a cookery shop . Tell them what you want it for . They have marks showing hot jam temperatures all the way down to hot glue .

mariamartin · Junior Member Joined: 31 Oct 2024 Posts: 2

John Cadd · Posted: Mon May 05, 2025 9:36 am Post subject: Graduation plan

In the early stages of finding out about violin making --exactness in detail is not worth worrying about .Exactness in sharpening is very important though . Some things matter more than others . The best idea to have is that there are many ,many different thickness patterns that will produce a good violin. Good in the early stages matters more than Great. We may never make a Great violin anyway .
Matching a hard top to a soft back is better than a soft top with a soft back . Also vice versa applies . Any theory you can imagine will always produce loud contradictions ,whatever you imagine .
Ancient Italian makers did not have all the scientific equipment we have today . It`s useful but it was not vital in the past . I made a naughty joking comment on one violin making video yesterday . It was so very precise with computers etc . I wrote"All this technology-
-All you need is a wooden ruler and a pencil behind your ear ". --Just a light nudge to not be too serious about it .
There is a video about making a Viola .He shows how the violin plates need to be a bit flexible and actually bends and twists the plates ,end to end and sideways. That is a useful thing to see if you are too nervous about breaking a plate .I have just been repairing a violin that had been sat on . The neck broke off and the top plate was in ten separate pieces . That is all back in one piece and flexes very well . But the other violin I was repairing is not nearly as flexible. So they are a good comparison .I may leave them as they are to see which way works best .Both the backs were split in 2 pieces so I am free to make my own decisions as I am in charge and nobody else has to worry about them .
The two broken violins were well made as long as you did not look inside with a mirror . Crude gouge marks inside the top and very crude carved in place bassbars .The makers had lots of skill but maybe little money .So they ruined the very part of a violin that counts most .
One has a Guarnerius label printed with Made in Czechoslovakia on the bottom . The style is right for a copy . How the back plate will flex ,I don`t know as it is 6.5 mm thick in the centre .But there are tiny dimples where a thickness gauge was used . That could be promising .
If you are very keen ---Make a copy of a thick Guarnerius Cannone violin .Get that working and then take it apart and change it to a Kreisler design that is much thinner. See if you can notice a difference in the sound . Tape recorders might be useful for that . It would give you a better perspective than selling the first one you make and never knowing .
Even small pictures of thicknesses would give you a rough idea of how to do that .

MikeCooper · Posted: Sat May 10, 2025 9:18 am Post subject:

I wonder what the purpose is for the thick area in the center of the back. How did the early makers come up with that idea, where did it originate?

What would a violin sound like if it had a uniform thickness in the back?

John Cadd · Posted: Sat May 10, 2025 12:16 pm Post subject: Graduation plan

There are very cheap violins from China in the white.Complete except for varnish . A good oportunity to experiment . The back only has one job to do .It responds to the soundpost. The top has to respond to the bridge feet and the resistance of the soundpost .

John Cadd · Posted: Tue May 13, 2025 9:08 am Post subject: Plate graduations

Your question about plain flat thicknesses is similar to popular questions about making violins from trees grown in America ---"In my back yard" sort of thing . That is part of the drive to wipe out history and be completely modern . The evidence of the best violins from history is all around us . Nobody tries to make violin necks out of Rubber . I wonder why . Because it won`t work .But do it all the hard way .We have eternity to try it all . Or maybe not .

John Cadd · Posted: Wed May 14, 2025 6:27 am Post subject: Plate thickness

I fell into the same trap myself . I have just referred to what famous makers did instead of thinking about the real subject itself .
The back of a violin is like an air pump. The more it vibrates the better the air is pumped . Now to make the pump work you have a tiny little soundpost ,only 6 mm thick . But to make it work better the area around the post can be made thicker and the area further away can be made thinner .Think of it like that . If you have seen the 8 violins made by Guarneri the areas are coloured . It`s in a Strad Magazine article. The strange conclusion near the end says that the areas are very different so "Logically" they can`t have anything to do with the sound.But that is the opposite of the real meaning .There are several ways to make a good violin. Following one pattern religiously is not necessary .Get the broad idea in your head and let the wood do the rest . Fine quality modern wood is not as plentiful as it was in Strad`s era .That might be having an effect on our modern violins .

catbrain · Posted: Fri May 30, 2025 7:07 pm Post subject: thicknessing

Ant:

I used the Ossman map for the top on my first instrument. It turned out to sound very nice. The instrument was a bit crude--- but sounded nice.

On the 2-nd one i used a top map that was kind of opposite---- the one from Strobel's book. I think I got that top a little on the thin side because I have to use the most damped strings I can find and it is still on the loud side.

I suspect that I have a tendency to stop at the listed thickness - but then a little more gets removed from the other side when prepping the outside for ground and varnish ect---- so I must cake care to leave the inside a little thick to account for the outside being scraped or sanded. ( I have gone to scraping no that i see how much better the result is on the outsides ! ) I discovered that you can take a single edge razor blade and turn the edge and it makes a nice finish scraper.

The two maps are kind of opposite --- thick in the center vs thick at the edges.