Violin Forum/Message Board

[Michael Darnton]

"The phrase Small Thinking about placement of the bridge relative to the inner nicks remains a mystery . That sounded very odd . I wondered if that included every maker who ever made nicks in sound holes. "

What I mean by small thinking is that some people are so stuck on their ideas of correct measurements that they will follow them right down a hole. If the violin sounds better with the bridge somewhere else they simply won't do it because that place is WRONG according to their numbers. That's small thinking.

That's why makers quite often don't make the best adjusters. Adjusters get paid to make violins work well, nice theories be damned. If just setting everything to the "right place" according to the numbers and the nicks was all it took there'd be no job for adjusters at all and players wouldn't be constantly looking for the right person to adjust their violins

The same idea holds for every step of the process: it's a dull workman who's unable to respond effectively to the problem in front of him because he has to follow the directions to the letter and can't deviate for any reason. That's how you make factory violins, not good ones.
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[John Cadd]

Comparing some Strad posters with x ray diagrams is useful . The Plowden Guarnerius shows the bridge foot across the bassbar. Looking at the top plate from outside , the left side of the bridge foot pokes out about 2 mms and the (right) inside of the foot is about 4mms. So if the ankle of that bridge foot is symmetrical (within that foot) then there is a tiny overlap inwards of that ankle. Maybe enough to cause the plate to flex left and right.
One thing I noticed about the bridge foot width; The gap between the upper soundholes is about 1/4 inch narrower. But on a Gagliano poster the top soundhole gap is identical to the bridge foot width . So the soundhole gap to bridge foot width is not too rigid . I can cover my back and say "It is what it is".

[John Cadd]

Thankyou MrDarnton for your clarification . I found the sort of thing you mentioned when I saw the Plowden poster. The "Popular Rule" we see often about bridge foot width being the same as the upper sound hole gap . That one is clearly not true .
Even a detailed instruction like "Moving the post towards the bass side will make the G string louder" .If a post end (edge) contacts the belly nearer the E string when the move apparently was towards the bass side it causes a lot of confusion.
I find violin instructions in many articles shows the English used to be very haphazard . At present in England we are enjoying the Post Office scandal and legal eagles picking apart obscure sentences for the real meanings or obfuscations . It`s becoming a popular pastime to pin down what anything really means .
I apologise if my previous comments gave you any offence . I think we are still on the same page though .
It`s good to highight that there are two schools of thought about placing bridges ,among other things .
We come back to the famous Welsh saying :
"As to that there is more than one opinion ".

[John Cadd]

Beginners fitting bridges do not need to start scooping out the holes in the early stages . Most of the important work before fitting comes down to how the overall taper is adjusted. So that is a surface job . It might be better to pick a few different designs and try those . But before testing bridges it`s important to practice fitting the soundpost . A few new designs to avoid the spike are on the net . The spikes are good if you can manipulate them and know where they need to be . They are not so good for early experiments. Arrange a tiny diode lamp to light up the insides so you can double check with a mirror . The sequence extends backwards as well if you need good soundposts. Practice making your own and develop the hand skills in ways you might not have tried before . Important is taking off the strings and removing the end pin . Maybe make a frame to hold the violin as you peer through the end hole .You only have two hands .

[John Cadd]

In an Edgar Russ video about soundpost positions there is a very interesting link between the bridge foot across the bassbar and the position of the soundpost relative to the treble side bridge foot .I had no idea there was such a strong link.
Edgar invites comments on this subject .He seems pretty definite about the link .It`s a good idea to look at any Xray images on Strad posters to see if that lines up with famous violins.

[Michael Darnton]

As a general rule I think you'll find that most makers develop a setup that works well enough for the specific thing that they make, where people involved in repair and restoration develop a standard starting point and will quickly deviate from that as needed. That's why it doesn't surprise me that you've been quoting makers not tonal workers (the people who adjust for pros) as sources for absolutes. The real life situation is quite a bit more varied and can't be pinned down.

But usually most people at least start with the post and bar 1 mm in from the outer edge of the bridge feet, and the post about the thickness of the top (circa 3 mm) behind the bridge, and then go from there, depending on the violin, the customer's playing style, and other variables like the season of the year and humidity. Every violin in the real world (that is, outside of a shop where one maker makes the same thing over and over) is completely different in what it needs.

To make a meaningful study of cause and effect in violin adjusting you need wide experience in different violins AND different players, and all combinations of that. I learned quite a while ago that how I might play a violin and adjust it for myself in my maker role is pretty meaningless when that violin is in different hands, for instance. In point of fact, most makers are mediocre players at best, and that does factor in to it.
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[John Cadd]

That sounds better . I can`t imagine limiting the post position so mechanically . But it`s a starting point anyway .
By the way thankyou for the advice you gave on Maestronet about tiny violins . I sent for a very cheap 3/4 violin on ebay and what turned up was a 1/8th size . At £13 I thought "Can this work?" It played the notes notes but taking the lid off it was all about 4 to 5mm thick .So I have thinned it down as per your instructions .I won`t have to alter the new bridge either . But these tiny violins are very important to get very young players familiar with holding them .It`s the future of music . Maybe amateurs should work on these tiny violins to help parents who are maybe a bit lost with clunky thick violins. The glue holding small violins together is fairly nasty stuff though .Certainly not hide glue .

[John Cadd]

A little experiment you can try to see if your bridge is tuned . The theory is that 2.9 Khz is the optimum frequency for a good bridge . 2.9Khz is F#7 and the test is to take off the 3 lower strings and move the E string onto the A slot on the bridge. Then find the F#7 note which will create a wolf note . If you get a wolf note the bridge is tuned in correctly for the theory .This idea was from Sweden . They may not be absolute experts but the test is an easy one for beginners ,which is what we all are basically .(Compared to Strad ).

[John Cadd]

Microsoft Word On Bridge Tuning is the site with the above information . The practical tips are near the end . The helpful part tells you where to cut and thin the bridge and how much each alteration changes the weight (or mass ) and frequency .No harm in mentioning all that .xxxxxxxxxxx
I edit this as a sentence at the start of the Microsoft article stuck in my head . It Should have been included in the Conclusions but there it is on page one paragraph 4 just opposite the first diagram of a test block.
An experimental violin was used for the tests.They say that the bridge frequency influenced the playing qualities -------More Than Sound Post Position and Bridge Height. --------
That`s a big statement and it would be silly to ignore it .But not inserted in Conclusions . Messy editing .

[John Cadd]

I forgot to mention the weight of bridges in the article from Sweden. It`s somewhere near 2.8 grams. Not exactly (one way or the other ).A tiny pocket digital weighing machine will help with that . The tonal preference can come from shaping the lower part .Straight across and untouched (Guarneri ?) and curved upwards for a brighter sound (Strad?).But the instructions about cutting the bridge are simple and clear . Lots of possible ways to try new tones with different bridges . None of the article is pushing or forcing you one way or the other.
One strong influence is the preference for Bausch bridges for the experiments . That will simplify part of the search .

[John Cadd]

I tried the experiment with just the single E string in the Swedish article .I had difficulty pinpointing the wolf note on F#6 .but I tried changing the bridge .It was a bit too light according to the Swedish article but I tried a few bridge positions and there was a quick improvement . Maybe this E string trick is a quick way to get the best position .
The article works on Moments of Inertia in the bridge . That reduces the uncertainty of where to remove wood .

[John Cadd]

I used one of my worst Chinese bridges today . It had wonky grain and was in the Bad collection .I put it on my skeleton fiddle . The quality will not matter so much . The Sweden University recommended the weight as 2.8 grams and for me that`s a useful starting point.All the spare bridges I have collected are well below that weight .Whether 2.8 is best is not such a big deal .You have to start somewhere . I cut the feet to fit first. Then marked the most likely position near the top curve.Plenty of weight taken off quickly .Then marked the edge thickness and shaved off the obvious areas without getting into designing .Each stage I popped it on the scales to check progress.Very soon I was getting near 2.8. I scooped some wood out of the holes without narrowing the structure .But once the obvious weight was removed it was very close to 2.8 and simplified where I had to trim next. So just simply aiming at the weight made the job quite easy.
I wanted a good bridge for my sound test .Would my implant stop the notes in two seconds ? Today the implant did a great job and I could hear the high notes very clearly . The progress has happened over 11 months but this is the big one.I can hear clean octaves on the E string without the switchoff torture . Now I need to get back in practice . I just wish audiologists would give us a hint or a clue about this but I doubt if they realise the mental effect it has .Up to now it felt like a kind of life sentence.

[John Cadd]

The new bridge for my skeleton fiddle sounds a bit rough this morning .It needs to be lowered fot the right fingerboard clearance .The A string is gut and does not like my skeleton frame .I spent some time making a new type of soundpost setter while my ears were out of action .Positioning the bridge is a physically separate thing to testing the sound .But soon the two will come together .