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vojtech.blahout
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Joined: 06 Jun 2013
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 Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:39 am Post subject: Violin making website |
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Hello,
I would like to share a link to the violin making website I have been working on for some time now. It is aimed at beginners and it's a work in progress, by no means complete, so any input would be greatly appreciated.
Here is the link: www.luthm.org
Thank you,
VB |
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ctviolin
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Location: Roswell
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| Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:59 am Post subject: Re: Violin making website |
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| vojtech.blahout wrote: | Hello,
I would like to share a link to the violin making website I have been working on for some time now. It is aimed at beginners and it's a work in progress, by no means complete, so any input would be greatly appreciated.
Here is the link: www.luthm.org
Thank you,
VB |
VB,
From what I'm reading thus far, this seems to be a worthwhile, well researched project.
A criticism - of the work thus far?
Well, I only started reading through the work, which does gives a very concise methodology.
But Ok, unless I misunderstood somehow;
I did have a bit of difficulty reading through your explanation of "runout". - The illustrations certainly show, not actually runout, but a simple misalignment of vertical plate grain, when gluing the plate halves together, matching vertical plate grain (or quartering) lines (by observing them at the ends of the plate (as you show) is possible but, it does not effect or take into consideration the phenomenon of runout – which happens along the length of the plate, and is not even detectable at the ends of the plate.
Runout is in a completely different plane than the one you are showing, and cannot be portrayed with the illustrations you are using - it runs the length of the wood in the plate, and is not really shown by the quartering observed at the end(s) of a plate.
It can only be determined by finding the plane of growth or twist that existed in the tree lengthwise - that will not show itself when observing the end (either end) where the grain for determining the quartering is observed.
Runout cannot be detected by looking at the quartering of the cut, at the end where it shows the vertical grain lines, and cannot be corrected by working such a figure so that the vertical grain lines of this quartering then “match”.
It is most easily found by looking along the long sides of the plate, or those exact surfaces of the plates, that are going to be glued together.
The grain runout (not the quartering) in the opposing plane, must be detected (most easily by having the edge surface well and flat(ly) surfaced, and either running a point along the length of the plate edge and watching for any travel not strictly in line with the top and bottom of the piece – or simply by looking very closely and seeing the growth orientation there.
Which is almost invisible
Physical proof of runout can be obtained by taking a split of the billet lengthwise, (in the flat and not the vertical plane) and seeing that the split goes straight, lengthwise, and doesn't travel through the plate in either direction towards the plate top or bottom.
Confusing, no?
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vojtech.blahout
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:57 am Post subject: Runout explanation |
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Hello ctviolin,
I guess I know what went wrong here. The paragraph number doesn't correspond with the Fig. number which should be ok because a paragraph can have a number of Figs. So Fig. 2 doesn't depict the runout.
The Fig. 1b shows the grain from top down view, not perfectly parallel, thats what I would call a runout. The Fig. 2 which is mentioned in paragraph 3. is indeed a side view of correctly quartered billets.
If you don't think the Fig. 1b depicts the run out correctly, could you please send me a sketch of your version so that I can make corrections? Should be much easier than describing it in words.
Thank you very much for your time.
VB |
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ctviolin
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:07 am Post subject: Re: Runout explanation |
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| vojtech.blahout wrote: | Hello ctviolin,
I guess I know what went wrong here. The paragraph number doesn't correspond with the Fig. number which should be ok because a paragraph can have a number of Figs. So Fig. 2 doesn't depict the runout.
The Fig. 1b shows the grain from top down view, not perfectly parallel, thats what I would call a runout. The Fig. 2 which is mentioned in paragraph 3. is indeed a side view of correctly quartered billets.
If you don't think the Fig. 1b depicts the run out correctly, could you please send me a sketch of your version so that I can make corrections? Should be much easier than describing it in words.
Thank you very much for your time.
VB |
Thank you for presenting something interesting...
Figs a., b., c., and d. all show various things that have to do with quartering.
Quartering is a true phenomenon - but is in the opposite plane that runout exists is in.
So, when you show that END of a billet (or piece) of wood, you can show how the grain (in this, case you are talking about the ANNULAR RINGS) will go through the billet either straight, in a curve, slanted to the left or right, whatever - it all depends on how large in diameter the tree was before it was felled and how the piece was cut.
But that doesn't show the correct plane that even contains the phenomenon of runout, which is talking about a property of grain, that isn't even hinted at in your description - nor is its location depicted.
As, it cannot be shown in the end grain properties as quartering can (and always is) shown.
It's a "long grain" property of wood, having to do with twist in the tree as it grew - or no twist.
It isn't nearly as visible as quartering is, where the annular rings are consulted for information -
in fact it isn't really all that visible at all, the way annular rings are - but it is detectible, and in fact it can be seen with some difficulty - so most people will either take a split along the long grain - or from the flat face of the board in question (in the flat plane of the billit) to see if there is any runout
- or many people (like me) will only buy billets of wood that have been split and still have a split FACE, so you can immediately see the degree of runout present.
The quartering can be perfect - or not perfect. none of which has anything to do with the presence of runut or no runout.
I will draw some pictures showing exactly this phenomenon and post them here but I suspect it will take a while as I will have to draw them - photograph them- load them up to Flikr (gag) - and then get them to transfer them here, if fliker even allows such a thing these days?.
In the meantime if you look up "runout" strongly enough you will eventually find a site that correctly depicts it.
Please let me know if you clear this up or not
Thanks
ct
It is a most common (perhaps THE most common) misunderstanding about wood used for violin making and I'm glad that it showed up here because a lot of people (YES - LUTHIERS INCLUDED) have the same mis understanding of what it is, as you do.
However, since you're writing it in a book - let's say that I'm merely proof reading it for factual descrepancies...
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Last edited by ctviolin on Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ctviolin
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:42 am Post subject: |
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Think about it -
(I saw that you were reading as I wrote this)
a slant along the LONG GRAIN of the billet.
Found by splitting the flat face - etc.
http://www.lutherie.net/frankford.runout.html
No connection to quartering.
Not detectible, in any way, by looking at the end grain - etc.
A result of a twist in tree growth.
Do you understand?
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vojtech.blahout
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:22 pm Post subject: Runout explanation |
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Now I get it. Thank you for the images. They helped to clarify the issue. English is not my first language so I do have sometimes difficulties understanding more complex subjects. :] I`ll let you know as soon as I update the website.
Thank you so much CT. Really. |
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ctviolin
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:34 pm Post subject: Re: Runout explanation |
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| vojtech.blahout wrote: | Now I get it. Thank you for the images. They helped to clarify the issue. English is not my first language so I do have sometimes difficulties understanding more complex subjects. :] I`ll let you know as soon as I update the website.
Thank you so much CT. Really. |
Hey, listen -
when people care to listen, and maybe learn something they didn't know, then I feel like it is worth posting - even about complex subjects.
Thank you for not simply disregarding a very important aspect of violin making.
ct
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vojtech.blahout
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:06 am Post subject: Runout explanation |
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Hello CT,
I have updated the runout definition based on your information. Please if you have any other pointers, let me know and I will investigate. :]
Thank you again
VB |
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ctviolin
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:10 am Post subject: Re: Runout explanation |
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| vojtech.blahout wrote: | Hello CT,
I have updated the runout definition based on your information. Please if you have any other pointers, let me know and I will investigate. :]
Thank you again
VB |
VB -
The WRITTEN definition is much better.
The illustration ?, well, let's just say I still don't see runout in the pictorial aspect presented AT ALL still...
Not to be problematic, but even though you have the written description very much closer to the truth regarding runout - you're still not depicting it at all (it isn't possible to depict it with an end view of the board(s), as you have there. (in fig.3)
Unless you simply haven't changed the drawing yet - but plan to - and I am perhaps answering too soon.
(?)
you're still showing either;
A. quartering problem, or
B. simple inaccurate joining surface, as it would appear from the end(s) of
the plates where the quartering IS visible...
Sorry, VB, I'm not trying to be problematic - but, are sure you "get" this aspect of runout ?.
And WHERE and HOW it is present in a billet of violin making (or in ANY) length of wood?
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Last edited by ctviolin on Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ctviolin
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:18 am Post subject: |
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If you intend this book to be about violin making and you intend there not to be an error in it, then this aspect of the wood must be both understood and show, - which I don't think it is yet.
In a way its like - you're half way there in your understanding of this phenomenon, but still misunderstand it somewhat.
Ok?
(sorry for being inflexible, but this is a basic of understanding wood that is necessary in lutherie)
http://www.lutherie.net/frankford.runout.html
ct
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vojtech.blahout
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:22 am Post subject: Runout explanation |
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Hi CT,
If you still see just the joining examples, please hit Ctrl+F5 if in Firefox or Shift+F5 if in Internet Explorer to force-refresh the page. The images have been updated but your browser may still show you the old versions.
Thank you for helping,
VB |
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ctviolin
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:33 am Post subject: Re: Runout explanation |
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| vojtech.blahout wrote: | Hi CT,
If you still see just the joining examples, please hit Ctrl+F5 if in Firefox or Shift+F5 if in Internet Explorer to force-refresh the page. The images have been updated but your browser may still show you the old versions.
Thank you for helping,
VB |
Ahhh, yes, I see it now.
You have done well, Grasshopper...
Seriously - good work.
You don't mind if I continue reading through - it isn't my intention to force any opinions of my own through, but simply to catch mistakes on the order of typos and the like?
Again VB - very well done with that change to the text, and do you show runout - very cool.
ct
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vojtech.blahout
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:06 am Post subject: |
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Thank you CT,
And by all means , correct away :]
I wanted to create a basic structure which could be modified and added to by people with more experience. So if you feel some parts need changes, please, let me know.
Or better yet, if you feel like adding more information directly, just set up an account and start editing, adding pages... All contributions will be duly credited.
VB |
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Mat Roop
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Location: Wyoming Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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Hi VB... great start... so is your intent to develop the equivalent of wikipedia focussed srtrictly on lutherie? (good idea by the way)
Cheers... Mat |
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vojtech.blahout
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| Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:07 am Post subject: |
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Hi Mat,
the website is built on an wiki engine for its openness, so anything is possible. It all depends on who joins the platform. For now, and I understand it's no small goal, I think a basic guide for beginners, an on-line equivalent of The art of violin making, but editable/expandable, with images/plans to scale and free, is enough.
VB |
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