Violin Forum/Message Board

[kjb]

I just strung up the 5 string and like the way it sounds, but I think the bridge is too high so if I could get some direction on where or how to get it in better proportion I would be grateful. perhaps lower the neck?

this is what I have now

string angle 156 degree
string length 330 nut to bridge
overstand 6 mm
height of c string 4+ mm
e string 3.75 or so mm
bridge height 39 mm total height
using straight edge on fb to intersection of bridge 33mm
the arch height was about 16.5 mm

thanks for any help on this , kevin

[ctviolin]

Personally Kevin,

Pictures help me a great deal - though, some of your #'s dont look bad.

In particular the C and E string heights over the far, I take it, end of the fingerboard...? which sound about right to me.

On the other hand - a five string? things are going to be a bit different from what I'm used to with a typical four string.

I would offer more, and most likely a bit more accurate - information - If you were able to post some photos of the set up geometry.

There are some people here, I believe, who know much more about five string violins and the like - and hopefully one of them will chime in.
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[kjb]

thanks ct, here is a pic , the reflections make it look like its warped all over the place.

the problem is that I can't get enough radius on the strings and I have not taken off hardly any height on the bridge. in order to get the 330, I moved the bridge farther down towards the tailpiece.

I am trying to fudge an original design problem i think.

from the end of the neck joint to the bridge feet is 191mm

the neck measures, from the nut to the purfling where I have the neck joint I have 137 mm

I am thinking that lowering the overstand by taking some off at the button part of the joint will keep the angle close and give me the proper bridge height. thanks for any suggestions. kevin

[Clifford Green]

I wouldn't want to lower the over stand. Unfortunate work on a new instrument, but I would vote to reset the neck with a lower projection and that would require a small shim on the heel bottom if you save your over stand.
Nice looking varnish. Is that some of Mr. Robson's?

Cliff

[kjb]

Yes it is done at the workshop.

yes I think I see what you mean, is my distance of my neck to bridge ok or do I need to adjust that also. thanks kevin

[Cliff Green]

Hi Kevin, especially now that I know which Kevin I'm talking to.

For violins I shoot for 130mm from nut to the top edge and 195mm from top edge to f hole nicks. I'm guessing that at 137mm for your neck nut to purfling that you will be OK. You have to make choices on how you change the neck angle. You could either deepen the mortise at the top or add wood to the bottom back of the mortise. It would be much simpler to cut in at the top if your neck length is adequate.
I hope Michael will step in if I'm leading you astray and perhaps share the least destructive method to remove a well fitted and glued neck. All of the necks I've reset have been loose, partially loose or fit badly.
Did you make any alterations to standard violin measurements (rib height, bout width, etc) to design you 5 string?

Cliff

[kjb]

hey cliff , did you end up finishing the ones that you brought?

well besided my obvious mistakes which you saw when you were there, yes there are some alterations, and I used a mould that may not have been standard either, as this was kind of an experiment the ribs a little taller, I think now maybe I should have made the ff holes larger or wider, and I was not sure where to get them exactly either, I made the bass bar taller also. It is very rough set up right now, so I can''t tell if the c is going to be strong or not, right now the a and the e seem to be more dominant .

This is also the instrument I worked on at bob spears class this march, with his plate tuning , so it is well traveled.

And as the varnish class got closer I rushed and this is the end result.

I had posted on here before about neck/string angle and bridge height, as something that was going on in my mind, now it has come to practice , maybe a premonition.
In the end I do like playing the five string and this one sounds pretty good, needs fine tuning for sure, but overall a nice sound and resonance.

As it would happen the things I rushed on to get done for the varnish class are a problem and I would like to find as good a compromise as I can to get the most out of it. thanks for the help. kevin

[kjb]

oh , I don't think I have ever taken a neck off that was newly glued either, like you said the older ones with the glue more brittle were probably easier. I will have to read up on the best procedure for that also.

I made a jig for setting it something like Micheal posted but made out of wood and fixed at 158 degrees, that fit at the nut and just on the saddle, but my idea was not a good one obviously!

[James Sanford]

I do not wish to hijack this thread but I wonder if violin luthiers ever use steam to release a neck?

This is very common in mandolin neck repair and resets. In fact I have done it myself to a fiddle I bought and repaired for myself. No problems that I saw.

[Michael Darnton]

The main reason not to steam is that fretted necks intentionally have a lot of empty space in the fitting where the steam can move around to get where it needs to go. They look tight on the outside, but usually aren't, internally. Everything still fits tight, but "tight" is achieved in a different way.

If a violin neck has been properly put in, there won't be any air space for the steam to move around in. Factory necks are notoriously loose, but I'd like to think it would be a bit of work to steam out a neck I've put in. :-)

I'm staying out of this discussion because I don't know anything about 5-strings, but my general advice would be if it ain't broken, don't break it.
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[Cliff Green]

Thank you Michael for giving My friend Kevin more sane advice. I only reacted to the conflict I could see whereas you wisely survey the whole battle.

Kevin, perhaps you could find a non standard bridge you could adapt to your situation. The violins I had at the workshop are those cheap Chinese VSOs that I never intend to set up. I've continued to experiment with the techniques we were taught. I plan to strip them and have another go at it.

Cliff

[James Sanford]

Thank you Michael for that insight regarding violin necks re steam. I knew it was not typically done so I felt there was a very good reason not to.

[Jacob]

I have very limited experience with 5-string instruments, but here are some random thoughts based on what I've struggled with.

Basically, the extra string causes more downward pressure on the top, which can have a muting effect on the tone when working with standard measurements for 4-string instruments. I found that I had to work around this by keeping the total downward pressure on the top to what normally works best, AND to keep the the "upward" pressure on the strings which would ensure a sarisfactory bowed response within normal working parameters. Basically this meant either lowering the string angle, or lightening the string gauges compared to what would work on a 4-string. In both cases a standard set of graded-tension strings just won't do it. Compared to a 4-string, at least the lower two strings need to be of a relatively heavier gauge than a standard set. In the end I found the best solution to be a "normal" string angle, with lighter-gauge top strings and heavier-gauge lower strings.

[fiddler59]

I have been playing 5-string fiddles/violins for the last 9 years almost exclusively. I use Helicore mediums with a Helicore heavy for the C-string. The neck projection at the bridge measuring from the middle of the fingerboard radius runs about 28mm. I believe the luthier makes them at 29mm when they are new and after things settle in for a few months the projection stabilizes around 28mm under string pressure and a few months of playing. It has a std. 42mm bridge and the string spacing is 10mm between the strings with the exception of 11mm between the c and g strings.
my action is 2.75mm on the e string and 4.5 mm for the g string.. I look for even string angles so bow crossings are even string to string. With this kind of setup the c string might have a slightly lower clearance at the end of the FB than the g string. As long as it plays well this is ok by me. My setups are based on a a std. classical radius.

David Blackmon

[kjb]

thanks for the information.