Violin Forum/Message Board

[Chet Bishop]

Giving good advice and being critical sometimes sound the same.

Unless there is something inside that needs repair (crack, loose linings, split blocks, etc.) there is no call to take the instrument apart to close an open seam...unless you are talking about one of the center seams. Are you referring to a center seam? That changes things a bit, but so far it has sounded as though you were only referring to the seams between plates and ribs...in which case there really is no need to take anything apart.

Age and wisdom don't always come in the same box. They are supposed to, of course, but there are those to whom the years bring only age. No one has tried to step on your toes...they have tried to give sound counsel.

On the other hand, if all you really wanted was an echo, I suppose one will come along eventually. Honestly, though-- these are experienced makers and repair-people, giving you free advice. Don't get in a huff because they don't agree with you.
_________________
Chet Bishop
https://bluefiddles.com
https://fivestringfiddles.com

[mr_violin]

Hi Chris,
I don`t think that anyone here is trying to be critical of you. I think we all are just trying to help.

Now I am going to try to answer this question of yours.
“What good advice do you think I don`t want to take ???”

You said; “As far as refinishing there is no way around it. I know that refinishing hurts the value of it but the fact is 90% of the original finish was removed prior to me getting it”
And,
“The refinishing is because you can just rub most of the old finish off with your finger and probably 90% of it was already off and has not been sanded. I am going to use the correct varnish for the violin. “

Why not say it like this;
“I know that refinishing hurts the value of it but the fact is 90% of the original finish was removed prior to me getting it. The old finish can just rub mostly off with your finger. Is there any other way to deal with a problem like this other than refinishing it? “

(please don`t take this as criticism ,I`m just trying to be helpful. In the end I say; “ Do what ever you like” )

Now one other thing.
You said that you were going to remove the top so you could re glue it because ; “Actually only the glue joints have started to separate and no cracks.”

But even after Doug Wall said;

“You usually don't have to take it apart to re-glue open seams. Just use a thin spatula to work fresh hot hide glue into the seams, and then clamp it”

And

“You usually don't have to take it apart to re-glue open seams. Just use a thin spatula to work fresh hot hide glue into the seams, and then clamp it”

And

Mat said;
“Never take apart unless there is no other option.... and never refinish... just restore.”

You still said after all this;
“that it has to be taken apart to be fixed right.”
Even though you even said before that ; “I am not afraid of taking it apart and re gluing or even having to repair and cleat anything that cracks along the way”

So you know you can damage it by taking off the top. You said it only has the seam unglued, and that is all.
Why not just listen to what Mat and Doug are trying to tell you.
I could follow there directions and have the top re glued and clamped in about 15 minutes.
Unless there is something you are not telling us about why the top needs to come off??

Chris, you should be thankful that this forum is hear so you can get more than one opinion on things like this. Some of the people on this forum have also “ been doing this probably longer than most of us have been alive.”

Also you asked ; “Who is Larry?????????”
Just someone that learned to ask questions and tries to follow advice.
Best wishes to you in this new year
Larry Lewis


(I agree with what Chet Bishop posted too. He posted his when I was writing .)

[Mat Roop]

I'll take Michaels D's advice any day!
Happy new Year!... Mat

[1949F1]

I guess as far as removing the top to reglue it is because as soon as you try to open it up alittle the glued seam is pulling apart even more. As for finish the ribs still have some of the original left but they are still 75 % or more bare already. The only thing I know to do with it is to finish removing the old finish as gently as possible. I know alot of people who insist that chemical stripper is fine but I dont agree with that. It has also been suggested to try alcohol. I want it to look as good as possibly when done but my bigger concern is tone. I would post pictures but can not at this time
Thanks

[Lemuel]

Hello Chris,

First of all, welcome to the forum and for opening up with an interesting problem.

No hard feelings. We are all here to help if we can. I must admit, after reading
your first post, I was mostly concerned (like the rest of us) that you’d be getting
into something for which you know nothing about and making a mess.

But after you mentioned that you’ve been in touch with a qualified luthier
(qualified - deduced from your quote that he’s been doing it for “longer” than
most of us have), I’m now assuming that you’re in good hands (and curious
to know if your luthier said anything to you about your question or not, and
you’re just looking for more opinions/suggestions or confirmations to what
you’ve been told).

Based on the information you’ve given us, this is how I’ve interpreted your posts:

- The violin needs to be opened up or taken apart to fix it right (conclusion of your luthier).

- The wood is extremely dry (which explains the concern for brittleness).

- The wood is still in nice shape (hopefully the “sound” conclusion of your luthier).

- You are not “concerned” about repair and refinish, means to me you’re not
worried about how to do it, but already know what to do.

- Currently there are no cracks visible arising from this brittleness, only open seams

- You are concerned that once you proceed to open it, any inherent brittleness in
the wood will cause new cracks to appear.

- You want to know if there is anything you can put on the wood to reduce or
eliminate any new cracks from appearing, once you start to open the violin up.

- You want to apply something that will not affect the future sound of the violin.


I went to ask the luthiers that I work with personally and this is what they have
to say.

As far as applying something to the wood, there is nothing. Then they
said that:

- There’s a small chance that if the wood is very dry and brittle, the violin is
not repairable. If the wood was subject to humidity levels of 5% or less, the life
of the wood would be destroyed.

- If on the other hand such is not the case, one should under controlled
conditions subject the wood back to proper humidity levels of 40% to 50% for
a few days before working on it.

- If the wood is brittle in one spot from dryness, chances are it is brittle
in other spots. Only time will tell when the wood is subject to sound vibrations.

- If the wood is very dry, the hide glue would also dry out. The protein
structure would have deteriorated, explaining the open seams. With this deterioration,
the glue bond is much weaker and it would be much easier to open the violin.

- Assuming that we’re dealing with hide glue, with enough time (and patience),
applying warm water to the glued areas, the glue should properly soften and
dissolve so that there is no risk in causing cracks when opening the violin up.

[1949F1]

You are pretty much correct. As for my luthier friend he is 91 and learned the trade from his dad. But he was not aware of anything to put on the wood to prevent it from being brittle. I did have some loose areas in the ribs and both blocks were loose. I also found one very faint crack about 1 inch long as I cleaned some of the old finish off. So there was a definite need to pull the top. My concerns about brittleness were not needed. I pulled the top the other evening, cleated toe crack and reglued the ribs and blocks, then reglued the top last night. Now I am ready to do the refinish work. Unfortunately someone already started the process. The finish would literally rub off the front and back but I do see traces of someone using a chemical stripper on the sides and peg box so I still have a good bit of work to do but so far it looks real good especially considering how rough it was. Thanks for all the suggestions