Violin Forum/Message Board

[CT Dolan]

To any and all,

I have become obsessed with late Stradivari violins and am desperately seeking a copy of the Stradivari Millanolo violin poster. Does anyone have a copy with which they'd be willing to part, and at what cost? Please let me know.

Thank you,
Chris

[DonLeister]

Try International Violin Co in Baltimore, they sell The Strad posters.

[CT Dolan]

Don,

I checked with them before, but I'll check again.

Thanks,
Chris

[Joseph Leahy]

Hi Chris

I was looking for a starting point and was interested in the Milanollo poster as well, as I think it was suggested by Michael Darnton as a good starting model. Unfortunately, I have no suggestions as to where to obtain one.

After some digging (and not finding the Milanollo), reviewing the posters I already had, and trying to get information on some other models I was interested in, I ended up purchasing the Kreisler, the Kruse and the Viotti posters from the Strad. I stand to be corrected here but I think that the Kruse is also considered as a good starting point and it is somewhat similar to the Milanollo.

If Michael is browsing, I would appreciate his comments on which of these models (or any other) he might recommend as a starting model.

Joe

[CT Dolan]

Michael, if you do visit, please comment.

I do have the Kruse poster, and my understanding is that the outline and arching are quite similar to the Milanollo. Nonetheless, I would dearly love to find a copy of the Milanollo poster. The Viotti is another VERY attractive Stradivari violin (both in form and execution), but my leaning is toward the later Strad's, and with the Strad posters, models such as the Kruse and Milanollo would be my best, most complete source of inspiration. However, I do have to say that I have become quite intruiged by the Titian. The recent Strad poster is a knock-out, and my eye is becoming more agreeable with the more "squarish" form of the Titian.

Other than these, I have a definite fondness for nearly any del Gesu, especially those from the 1740's (in particular the Vieuxtemps, Leduc and of course the Cannone).

On another note, I find it interesting that (according to the writings of Roger Hargrave) in both the Milanollo (and perhaps other, later Strads), and the later del Gesu's the long form of the top arch is more of a gradual curve, lacking a defined flat central area. I also find it very interesting that the later del Gesu's appear to have similar arching to the later instruments from Stradivari, such as the Milanollo (again, as per the writings of Roger Hargrave). If so, this seems clear evidence that del Gesu continued to draw inspiration from his fellow tradesman, even after he left the more carefully-defined work of his earlier period (such as the executiuon of his f-holes). Maybe this is just one of my pedantic observations, but there definitely seems to be something to it.

[Michael Darnton]

Now that there are the Kruse and the Titian posters, I wouldn't worry about getting the Milanollo. That was a bit of a strange choice on their part, and the best thing going for a while, but I think the later ones are better examples to work from.

The later Strad thing that you're into is a bit of a rat's nest. They vary quite a bit--as the Hills say, he was revisiting a lot of older models, and there's a period where it's not even certain he was making the violins himself (would a guy on his supposed death bed be an active violin maker?) Then you run into a period of degradation. I think you really need to take them one at a time as individual instruments, rather than as a group.

Yes, there is an interesting trend regarding long archings towards the end of both makers. I tend to think that it's related to how many of these arches are low, and what's necessary to support an inherently weak lower arch. Dropping the flat spot may be a result of that.

I have to say, though, that your intensity and compulsiveness about trying to get all this right, both in public and in private communications, is a treat.

[Joseph Leahy]

Very interesting observations Chris and thanks very much for your comments Michael. I really like the Titian for its robust design so I will choose between this and the Kruse when I finally put chisel to wood.

[Andres Sender]

The outline of the Titian is so close to that of the Milanollo that it seems most likely they were made on the same mold. The Titian is slightly wider in the c-bout, and aside from asymmetries (The Titian has one very sloped shoulder) and differences in the corners, that's about it.

------------------------

It's easy for things to get confused when using words to describe arching. I may be about to prove this by unintentionally muddying the waters a bit.

In the Biddulph books on del Gesu, in his descriptions of individual instruments, John Dilworth points out that in "the last year" of Del Gesu's production one sees long top arches that have no flattening at all, and this can be seen on the Doyen and Ole Bull.

The 'Milanollo' top long arch represents a different concept, it is "somewhat" flattened in a long shallow curve between transition areas in the outer bouts. This shape is also found on the Del Gesu Kreisler of 1730 (famously Stradivarian), and although not an exact match a similar concept seems to be at work on the Cannon, although that arch is a few mm lower than the Milanollo.

So although Roger Hargrave finds remarkable similarities between the arches of "the last 2 years" of Del Gesu's work and those of the Milanollo, I don't think one should attach that characterization specifically to the long arch of the top. The comment is part of a discussion in which he often makes reference to possible cross arch templates to explain the consistency of del Gesu's work, so perhaps that is more what he had in mind? A quick check of the Ole Bull shows top cross-arch shapes that are somewhat similar to the 'Milanollo', although with even less scoop in the c-bout.

It's hard to encompass a 3D object in words or diagrams, so the road to understanding arching without first-hand access to these instruments is strewn with pitfalls. (So sayeth the voice of experience ). We may envision the long top arch when an expert says an instrument's arching is "not weak", but the expert will often be thinking about the back arch, and in 3 dimensions i.e. the way the cross-arches work with the long arch shape.

Michael do you think of the 'Ole Bull' and 'Cannone' style long top arches as being part of a family of attempted solutions to the weakness of low arches, or should the 'Ole Bull' type be separated out from del Gesu's work altogether?

.

[Michael Darnton]

I think the Ole Bull is similar to some others of the late ones, the quirky ones I call Katarina's, but the Cannone concept is totally different and more relates to something he did throughout his career, but rarely, and especially, early on. There are a couple of violins from the beginning of the 30s that are quite similar to the Cannone, for instance.

You're right, verbal descriptions are problematic. I can imagine someone who once saw a Steiner saying "it goes up fast from the purfling and then is flat across the top", and a whole school of German makers ended up with something that described like a Stainer but looked like nothing else every made anywhere. Another common bad one is "the f-holes of Cremonese violins lay flat when viewed from the sides" and you have a whole bunch of modern makers doing something that the Cremonese makers virtually never did, and doing some grotesque arching things to get it.

[CT Dolan]

Michael, the treat is all mine, trust me on this one.

In my opinion, making violins is no different than playing them, in that a job poorly done is still a job poorly done, with a good interpretation being vital to getting it right in both cases. So, I am doing my best to understand the most revered of past efforts, in the hope that when the time comes to apply what I have learned my intperpretation will be somewhat worthy of their glory, and if so (and if I am lucky in the process) maybe some of their greatness will show through in the result. If only it were so simple...

For those who, like me, have no access to these instruments and who want to better understand them in a three-dimensional sense, a great and easily accessible learning tool is youtube. When I go on youtube and watch some of the great violinists of the past (and present), I am as liable to be paying attention to the form of the instrument (the belly, of course) as the performance of the soloist, as when light reflects off the belly from different angles, something of their three-dimensional nature is revealed. I am also very much looking forward to the Strad 3D project. I think this will be a great learning tool as well. Regardless, one thing has become quite apparent to me over time, that is the extremely elegant nature of the form and arching of instruments from the Cremonese school. In this regard, they're simply gorgeous.

[Andres Sender]

I have a file with about 80 screen captures from Youtube videos of a particular instrument in different lighting situations and from different angles.

Bow shadows are also useful, and even fingerboard shadows can be telling.

A horribly shaky basis for drawing conclusions of course, but hard to resist.

[CT Dolan]

Andreas, you are correct. It is in some respects horribly shaky, at least with regard to details (and I do realize that the devil is in the details), but broad observations can be made and it does seem that with regard to outer form (arching, in particular), the better instruments all share some common traits. With regard to this, arching templates leave much out of the picture. For one, the way the c-bout tapers into the upper bout seems to have a peculiar, but common form (or concept) in intruments of Cremonese origin, and all arching templates I have seen do not show this to great effect.

Those of us who do not have direct experience are studying three-dimensional objects in a two-dimensional realm. To borrow a phrase from Cosmology, we're "flat-landers" who know only the two-dimensional world, and it often takes those who have traveled the three-dimensional realm, and are willing to tell of their experiences (people such as Michael), to help us understand that which we've never seen first-hand (even once, much less many times over again). So, here's a personal "thank you" to those who have, and who share what they've seen and what they've learned along the way. Some day I am going to attend one of Michael's seminars, when the kids are a bit older and I have the opportunity, but for now it is WorldCat, online forums, youtube and the occasional piece of published literature!

[Andres Sender]

Hmm I wonder if we've been looking at the same videos.

[Michael Darnton]

Have you seen the "fun with lasers" stuff on my website? The original idea was Andres', and I added a few twists to it. I have more of these, but haven't put them up on the web--I'm a little scared about what the hit on my bandwidth allowance would be.

[Joseph Leahy]

I've seen this and just watched at it again. Sorry for the bandwidth drain. I'll keep it where I can find this time. Fascinating!

I also appreciate your violia making sequence and have studied it often (I especially like the photo of the corners - elegant) .. also the picture of some of your tools. Will continue to be a reference in the future.