Violin Forum/Message Board

[John Cadd]

I bought some old (German I think) Fine Tuners a few years ago and found them hard to fit or understand . They were a similar size and shape to the Hill models but the main oblong brass plate on a Hill will be underneath the tailpiece and the adjusting lever pokes upwards in front of the screw .These German tuners had an oblong plate that fitted on top of the tailpiece and the adjusting lever lay flat in the "minimum "position , What I realised yesterday was they only work properly on the E string if you remove a piece of the insert .Just about 1/4 inch to allow the hook to lay flat . Now i have a full tuning range of 15 twists from min to max .
What I like is the weight of 3,5 grams . The ball end or loop stays very close to the correct string position without disturbing the string angle over the bridge. Total length of these fine tuners is 15 mms .
There are two models . One has a thin adjusting lever . The other has a more robust oblong insert that pivots. with the thinner part fitting inside the clamping screw. Where the oblong meets the thin part is a problem . The pivot has two bottom corners that move downwards and when they move they meet the tailpiece and stop . A very fine file can remove those corners ,--or some of the tailpiece can be whittled away to allow for movement.You can see these tuners on ebay . Silver coloured and they will always be the smallest .
An interesting technical problem solved and maybe the makers never explained how they worked . They might be superior to the Hill model if you measure the distance from the insert position ,either forwards and backwards or up and down .

[John Cadd]

Now here is some really nerdy detail .The clamping posts on the tuners is threaded externally to tighten up on the tailpiece .The post is also threaded internally to compress the adjustment lever.That lever slides inside the post ,and the post is sliced down the centre .But--wooden tailpieces are shaped externally (the top surface ) to match the bridge curve. Underneath is scooped out to keep it light .Those surfaces combined are not screw friendly .The clamping post has countersunk shaping but they do not match the combined inner and outer curves, So when the post nut is tightened the nut gets distorted and because it is sliced down the middle you have two sections of a threaded screw which get out of line with each other. Then it`s hard to turn the screw.
This will always happen when the tailpiece hole is drilled at the correct angle.So adjusting the countersink shaping underneath is not the complete answer.((If you place the screw in the tailpiece just by finger pressure the screw exits almost vertically ))(Edit here) The finger pressure was the mistake I made .The holes WERE drilled correctly . The inner surface was tilted instead of square to the drilled hole .Screws dislike all that. they like a straight hole and square surfaces both sides . What you see is a tuner plate on the surface with one side touching and the other side with a fresh air gap. Imagine a gap like that under your bridge or your soundpost .
Many keyholes in tailpieces are not even wide enough to get the strings in the slots . That`s true but not a big problem .Rant over,----for now .

[John Cadd]

Another thought about the Number 9 fine tuners (See the ebay selection )the countersunk base of the fixing bolt does not help much .The inner part of the hole needs to have a countersunk cutout to match the clamping bolt hole.
A further detail about screwing the fixing bolt as tight as you need to keep it still . Everything works smoothly until the final tweek . At that stage the fine tuner would be considered loose. As soon as the last tweek happens it jams too tight to use the screw . I use small surgeons pincers with teeth in the jaws. Nothing as harsh as pliers. They work better than fingernails or fingertips .
For the screw it`s important to feel the difference between loose and taking up some string tension. Any overall stiffness throws it all into confusion.
So overall the Hill fine tuners win because the main fixing bolt is stronger and the insert is not disturbed.The Number 9 tuners work well but I think luthiers would be the only people that would get it right first time . There are very similar used designs that came before the Hills. Some of them do not cater for ball ends .But they are a lot cheaper . I`m glad I sorted out how the German tuners work .File that in Puzzle Corner .

[John Cadd]

Stradpet in Titanium does not look completely original but needs to spend some time in Puzzle Corner .The screw has to be turned downwards but when it is in position almost flush with the surface we have to ask --"How do you get it down with nothing to grip on ?"
Old handsaws used screws with two slots to get the screw tight and flat .The body below cannot rotate with the string lever poking upwards . Some photos seem to show the tailpiece hole is countersunk before fitting .It looks as if a luthier has to be dragged into the fitting .
Does anyone know?
Edgar Russ shows the ingenious screw that fixes the Stradpet in place.The top of the screw has an Allen key hole to tighten and the rest of the bolt is threaded for the adjuster screw. So the new mystery is solved .
The very standard fine tuners make a long path from string to tailpiece body. On the e string the vibration runs down to the pivot and then along to the end where the screw point touches. It also runs from the pivot along under the tailpiece until it meets the fixing post. The second of these is not necessarily touching the bottom of the tailpiece all the way along .That may or may not be happening . There may be some flexing where the main screw is holding it all in position .That can act as a spring getting in the way and altering the sound .Maybe the uncertainty could create a buzz or muffling . It is not a perfect ,direct connection with such a sensitive part of a violin .

[John Cadd]

Comparing the performance of fine tuners does not relate solely to the weight .If two tuners are both at or below 3.5 grams then the sound difference will be minimal . The Stradpet titanium has a vertical post and vibrations run down and and turn to the adjuster and then to the screw and onto the wood . That a right angle.
The delicate German construction with the brass plate on top of the tailpiece has a string hook which passes vibrations in a direct straight line through the pivot and onto the fixing post and the wood .
So a near perfect straight line beats a right angle connection . So I reverse my choice and vote for the German fine tuner above the Stradpet despite the tiny weight difference .

[John Cadd]

To cut an accurate countersink shape to hold the base of the split screw you need someting like an Ezarc countersink drill bit.The tailpiece holes will give the size of drill bit needed . You only need that to align the countersink part. So turn the drill bit round and use the blunt end as the guide .Then the main contersink part will make a circular cut against the uneven curves under the tailpiece . Once the circular mark is cut there is enough stability to keep the split screw aligned .It sounds fussy but it is an important detail that needs to be right .

[John Cadd]

The very small tuners I have been studying included one with a screw that had Gernany printed (embossed ?) on it .
Another comparison with Hill tuners --The Hills have a lever underneath the tailpiece. But the German tuners only have the countersunk end of the split screw. It`s only 5mm wide . Nothing else lives under the tailpiece . If the insert was not involved it would be perfect.
What is the feeling about cutting out a section of a tailpiece insert. Ebony tailpieces have ebony inserts . One tailpiece from China had a black insert but when I filed it the dust was white. Some kind of plastic .

[John Cadd]

Some new fine tuners from ebay today . One German one fitted very well on a rosewood tailpiece. This one has an oblong plate that sits down on the top with no gaps at the sides . The second one I could not fit on an ebony tailpiece because the hole was too close to the insert. On the next attempt the moving lever still had a corner poking down as the screw turned .That`s enough to stop it working . Either a risky Dremel saw job or cut it back with a sharp chisel .
Changing to another ebony tailpiece the inner scooped surface certainly needs an accurate countersink slot to keep the split screw straight .Ebony tailpieces need more accurate cutting beneath .They are just lumpy.
Two different tuners now . Wittner are making them the same style. No oblong plate but a collar round the screw and the rivet is also the pivot . It needed a good countersink below .I used an Ezarc countersink drill bit which was a bit narrow for the hole , but easy to keep aligned .
That was a good fit and the screw was smooth. It gave 8 twists and the insert remained intact .So a good result apart from one glaring error . Just slide your fingernail into the string slot and see how close you get to the insert height . On the German tuner the nail is close to the insert in low and high positions.
The Wittner style raises the fingernail about 5 mms . That`s massive. The E string in tension will not move so the tailpiece will get twisted .One buyer mentioned that recently . Time to test one of my Dremel circular saws to deepen the slot. I have never used one before .
So fine tuners are certainly not Plug and Play at all .
Edgar Russ struggles to demonstrate cutting a pocket underneath for a Hill tuner but he makes the same mistake I did on the first attempt . The holes are fanned out and we both tried to make one vertical . It`s not as easy as we thought .

[John Cadd]

The Wittner style tuners with a collar round the main screw should allow about eight or ten twists . Wittners may have invented this design or any patent is old enough for others to use the design .
The string slot which you can fit your fingernail in should allow the string to run straight to the bridge. If the slot is not deep enough ,the "ball" (which is a ring basically ) cannot rotate inside the hook as the string is adjusted. The hook angle will rise and the sharp edge of the hook will be scraping on the string itself instead of bearing smoothly on the ring.The ball part will be bent down by the top of the hook .A simple invention like a magnifying lens will show what is happeneing . Slacken the E string to get a slow motion demonstration of how to destroy an E string.

[John Cadd]

To deepen the slot in the hook you can use a small hacksaw.
Check the thickness of the blade is no more than 0.5 mm. Take the tailpiece off the violin and take out the adjuster screw . That will get in the way and get damaged .
To clarify what you need to do put the end of an E string in the hook and raise the hook in the max position. The ball end ring should sit in the curve of the hook .Above and below ----the E string will form a triangle towards the winding . That triangle must have enough room to fit without the hook disturbing it .Look what the hook is doing in the top (max) position . If the slot clearance is too shallow the string gets into an ugly tangle instead of sitting securely .
That is why the hacksaw is needed .
I get the impression many players do not understand fine tuners . The same goes for Fine Tuner Makers . Either they don`t know or don`t care .
More details for the countersink drill bit . It needs to be 4 mm thick .Just take the drill bit out of the main cutter and fit it backwards.That will give an accurate guide to keep the split screw straight . Only do this by hand .You don`t need a drill .The bottom of most tailpieces are out of shape .the screw should emerge at right angles to that part of the surface..There are 4 holes and 4 different angles .They fan outwards .

[John Cadd]

The problems with fine tuners can be caused by the bottom surface shaping of wooden tailpieces. Until now tailpiece
makers seem to have ignored the fact that most players want a fine tuner on the E string .There is nothing difficult in making an automatic shaping machine cut the under surface to suit those fine tuners.A simple flat surface to suit a Hill style tuner and an accurate countersink to suit a Wittner or German tuner. Edgar Russ would appreciate that in his video about Hill tuners .
The larger more common fine tuners would benefit from a flat spot to contact the bottom of the tailpiece .A separation between most of the tailpiece leg and the tailpiece would ensure there was no buzzing .
If machines can reproduce a violin scroll they can manage to shape the tailpiece bottoms as well .

[John Cadd]

One of the fine tuners I have been calling a Wittner is now on sale ,but they call it a Uni. This design also works better without the tailpiece insert . I bet that idea sends shock waves through the violin community .The insert is only useful if there is no fine tuner . Just one tiny section on the E string will not be missed . It stops a large part of the tuner adjustment. If you want to preserve the insert you should only use the Uni tuner with a loop ended string .The slots are too shallow to work effectively.

[John Cadd]

The two main types of fine tuners are Vertical and Horizontal. Obviously the Hill style is vertical .The support post is designed to pull the string with a low placed pivot . The Uni or Wittner tuners have a higher placed pivot and raise the string end as it is used . For both types the best use is to minimise how much the tuner is used . Keep the fine tuner setting near the minimum position .Start each day , before you go to play or practice , by winding back the fine tuner and adjusting the tuning with your pegs . The Vertical tuner will have the levers beneath the tailpiece withdrawn away from the varnished surface.The horizontal tuners also should be relaxed to keep the string height near the level of the lower strings.Keep the tuner screw twists in reserve rather than trying to dodge the use of wooden pegs.
It`s a bad idea to rely on steel strings to stay in tune for weeks or months .
Work hard to think about your teacher`s job and minimise problems that can be exhausting and waste time. You will become more responsible and more efficient .Eventually it will make you a better player . Behave like a good team player.

[John Cadd]

The German tuners with a larger brass pivot platewill sit flat on top of the tailpiece but as soon as the screw is turned the corners of that plate will press into the surface and refuse to move. The plate will not fit the narrow slot . With the tuner away from the violin you can move the pivotting plate and see the sharp brass corners poking down. Maximum depth of those corners is one sixteenth of an inch.The way I removed them was to hold the tinner part of the pivot in a mole grip and file thm down with a small diamond file. It`s not easy to do .You have to be careful to preserve the working parts . But when the pivot moves and does not press on the tailpiece it becomes a usable part of a violin .Then it works efficiently .I don`t think most fine tuners need any lubrication.Tightness ia mechanical problem that needs to be sorted out . Keep the tuner set near the minimum position generally . How many twists per day does your fine tuner need? Keep a mental note .
The leader of the Amadeus String Quartet on the radio once described frustrations with wooden pegs.It was so frustrating he looked for a pair of pliers to sort them out . You are not alone .

[John Cadd]

Testing a standard E string in the adjuster hook on each tuner today reveals the fact that some German tuners will not fit the ball (ring).The diameter of the slot is too small .So it ends up with the tip of the hook only making contact .
The later design fits well .I hope it was a later design, otherwise they were going backwards .
The Uni style (Wittner ) tuners fitted the ball end but unless you want the string to aim at the ceiling you need to cut the slot down drastically .
Coming on to the well known larger tuners with a lever underneath there is a major problem.The string end ball fits nicely and you start to wind it in ,just 4 twists and that`s as far as it goes.The ball end jams on the fingerboard end.These will only work with a loop end . Otherwise you waste another possible twenty twists . Or cut the screw shorter .
The Bois d`Harmonie tailpieces have a very reliable and practical solution with this kind of tuner.The string end stays very close to the insert.You can always disconnect three and leave the E string . But orchestral players would like the A string adjuster to begin a concert in tune with the oboe . Now Bois tuners have taken the lead in the fine tuner race. And they are avoiding metal and plastic tailpieces for possible tonal advantages .