Violin Forum/Message Board

[Devlinski]

How far from the end of the fiddle should the tailpiece be, the length of the gut etc. and is this critical and why?

[Michael Darnton]

The length of the G string between bridge and tailpiece saddle should be 55mm. Ideally the tailpiece should be stabilized by almost resting on the saddle at the other end.

Having the afterlength right adds a sizzle to the sound that most players like, and helps carrying power. 55mm does not work with every instrument, but it does with most. Sometimes you will need to mess around a bit to find the exactly right length, but 55mm is usually fine. On violins of marginal quality you won't be able to draw this sizzle out, no matter what. In those cases, generally, a longer afterlength results in a "wilder" violin, and a shorter one makes the violin "tamer". Wilder can be good up to a point, until things become wolfy and unstable.

Stabilizing the tailpiece by not having too much between it and the saddle pumps more of the movement of the strings through the bridge = just plain more.

Tailpieces are available in different overall lengths from 105mm to 112mm to adjust for this.

[John Cadd]

I found only 2 topics on tailpieces so I might as well keep the numbers down .
What were the original tailpieces like made by Stradivari. He probably worked out something useful .
I responded to a player on Violinist .com once .He suggested replacing the tailpiece with a metal arrangement with a brass piece to hold the strings and a simple thick wire connection to the bottom end .So I made one as he suggested and straight away knew it killed the tone stone dead.Compared to a rosewood standard design it was totally wrong.
I had tried comparing ebony and rosewood. The rosewood had a warmer tone.It suited that violin . It is a well known fact that loading up a wood tailpiece with adjusters has a deadening effect on tone. Metal tailpieces seem an easy ,lazy way to go . So what does the material like ebony and rosewood do ? It picks up vibrations from the string and obviously begins to respond as a resonant wood always does.That will send some vibrations back to the bridge via all the strings connected to it. Then the bridge will amplify those extra vibrations. So that`s a better way to understand the word sizzle. I suppose you need a word to pin that down. Better to understand why it sizzles though .
I mentioned Violinist.com as the "experts" decided to rag on the writer asking the question. And I objected that it was bad to sneer at his question without testing it. What I said was "Be polite . --He`s a gentleman " The arrogant superiority struck me as a poor way to treat anyone .
What made me ask these questions today ? Well even though my hearing has become so bad and in a few weeks I will have a cochlear implant I still wondered if I could play an instrument afterwards . Then I saw an advert for a Bandurria .This is a pear shaped instrument that began life in the 16th century. But it branched out to guitars ,mandolins etc. But this has an amazingly short scale--Eleven inches. By coincidence I had made a few skeleton fiddles and made the scale very short to suit my hand perfectly . Measuring the skeletons they had the same Eleven inch scale. Despite the modern use of a Bandurria with multiple 12 steel strings I thought it could be changed back to a nylon string instrument and converted to play with a violin tuning . If it works it will solve a problem lasting over seventy years.Something to suit my short fingers .
Then I wondered if the strings stretching down to the "bottom end" from the bridge would be better with a nice wooden tailpiece . Do you see where I`m going?
Or---String it up as a six nylon string guitar. Or one tuned with fifths all through .Endless possibilities . Perhaps a creative way to compensate for after -operation difficulties .

[John Cadd]

A different angle (literally) on tailpieces can be seen with Harp Tailpieces .They are demonstrated on Fiddlershop and the comments are very diverse . I think all the harp designs sounded better than the standard shapes. The G string is much further from the bridge . All the lower notes sounded richer than the standard design. The top strings were just as bright . These are cheaper on AliExpress but beware of the advert claiming Genuine Pernambuco . They admit that Brazilwood is the closest to Pernambuco but it might not matter anyway .Some Fiddlershop commenters liked Ebony harps more .Others liked Boxwood harps . A few preferred the standard model .
The overall sound from Harp Tailpieces reminded me of the difference made by Gut strings .Violins will sound more different from each other.The standard tailpiece seemed muted by comparison and fell into the regimented standard tone category .

[John Cadd]

If you see tailpieces on sale from China they don`t call them Tailpieces.They call them Pulling Boards . It`s a good example of how Chinese gets directly to the meaning despite language obstacles .

[Michael Darnton]

Just as a general rule divergent technologies like harp tailpieces have a place, and that place is in modifying less-than-perfect instruments, which is a huge market.

In my shop we deal with the highest class of instruments, and constantly run across players or shops who've put such things on instruments as an unthinking reflex of more money = more upgrade. It's usually a mistake. One person might view it as an improvement, but the general customer base usually will not. In a lot of cases it improves what I'd call "buzz in the hand", which players associate with a more lively instrument, but every bit of movement that goes into exciting the player's fingers is something lost from the total output of the instrument, and it's often in areas that are critical for perceiving higher quality.
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[John Cadd]

Today`s Ali Express advert is for Standard Harp Tailpieces about £2.30. But the images of 28 different tailpieces are all the normal straight across model .
There must be an optimum position for either model just by trial and error or measurement. Some like the sound and some dislike the sound but each violin is different .Viola players are interested in the benefits for lower notes .
One comment surprised me . The player was not happy but after fitting with Kevlar it made all the difference . Yet another mystery .

[John Cadd]

The steel strand cords for tailpieces are on ebay for £5.50 a pair. No stretching or knots needed . All with screw adjusters . Maybe the makers should explain the thread depth to allow exact changes with number of turns. That would save disturbing the soundpost too often .
Or just work out how much each turn of the screw changes before fitting . That would be fiddly . I mean ,if you want to be really exact .

[John Cadd]

Any tailpiece of either shape fitted with an E string adjuster must be disqualified from the strict 1/6th rule because the fine tuner hook is further ahead of the tailpiece insert . Add to that the player must keep the bridge straight to maintain the vibrating length decided by his/her luthier .So with an E string adjuster ,pluck the e string south of the bridge and see if the note matches anything that makes sense. An e string adjuster distance in front of the tailpiece might be 1/4 inch . That would be a very sharp note .That`s what happens in a strict rules game . But get that right and all the other strings will be wrong .

[John Cadd]

Manufacturers of tailpieces are clever enough to make metal tailpieces with built in adjusters .But they need to go one step further and build in a connector at the bottom end with a strong screw to adjust the 1/6th proportion while all the strings are in position .The strings would be slackened to keep the sound post secure but the screw could pull or slacken the tailpiece to get it just right.
The tailpiece length adjuster screw could be built into wooden or metal or plastic tailpieces.That would still allow a choice of loops to hold onto the end pin.
Kevlar knots could allowed to tighten .Nylon loops could be allowed to stretch .Then the screw adjuster would be there to simplify the whole thing. Beware of adverts claiming carbon fibre construction . Some will be plastic with tiny pieces of carbon fibre included in the adjusters.
So to sum up the choices ;
Length can be altered
Weight can be altered
Wood /Metal/Plastic can be chosen for resonance or damping.
Shape can be altered .
Up to four fine adjusters can be fitted with the negative effect of damping too near the bridge.
It`s a mistake to rely on fine adjusters as a way to avoid using wooden pegs that may be stubborn or faulty. I am sure steel strings that stay in tune for months will be a bad but popular get out to avoid using wooden tuner pegs .
Alternative geared pegs will be more reliable but expensive .Cheaper geared pegs can be combined with fine tuners.

[John Cadd]

Manufacturers of tailpieces are clever enough to make metal tailpieces with built in adjusters .But they need to go one step further and build in a connector at the bottom end with a strong screw to adjust the 1/6th proportion while all the strings are in position .The strings would be slackened to keep the sound post secure but the screw could pull or slacken the tailpiece to get it just right.
The tailpiece length adjuster screw could be built into wooden or metal or plastic tailpieces.That would still allow a choice of loops to hold onto the end pin.
Kevlar knots could allowed to tighten .Nylon loops could be allowed to stretch .Then the screw adjuster would be there to simplify the whole thing. Beware of adverts claiming carbon fibre construction . Some will be plastic with tiny pieces of carbon fibre included in the adjusters.
So to sum up the choices ;
Length can be altered
Weight can be altered
Wood /Metal/Plastic can be chosen for resonance or damping.
Shape can be chosen.
Up to four fine adjusters can be fitted with the negative effect of damping too near the bridge.
It`s a mistake to rely on fine adjusters as a way to avoid using wooden pegs that may be stubborn or faulty. I am sure steel strings that stay in tune for months will be a bad but popular get out to avoid using wooden tuner pegs .
Alternative geared pegs will be more reliable but expensive .Cheaper geared pegs can be combined with built in fine tuners.

[John Cadd]

One more way to cover your back is to get a tiny weighing machine to measure grams. Then if you weigh everything before you fit it there will be no excuses possible. So if you take off an ebony tailpiece ---weigh it carefully and make sure any replacement tailpiece is also weighed carefully . Then if the weights are identical you can state that the new material produced the improvement or made it worse .
The original question comes at the topic from the wrong end . The distance of the tail end from the bottom of the violin is less important than the distance between the bridge and the tailpiece top end . I don`t know if anyone makes special tailpieces for exact lengths .I`ve forgotten the word for that .--Bespoke.

[Michael Darnton]

1. Tailpieces are available in a variety of lengths because the TP to saddle distance is important.

2. Wittner does make a tailpiece with a screw to adjust the after length.
https://www.internationalviolin.com/parts/tailpieces-tailguts/violin-tailpieces-tailguts/883-violin-tailpiece-wittner-multi-syst-ultra-classic

3. The exact location of weight in a tailpiece (weight near tuners vs weight near saddle) is as important as weight, maybe more, because tailpiece weight damping the bridge via the strings.
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[John Cadd]

That is a clever adjuster .The picture is a bit fuzzy but you can work out what is pulling which .
On my old German violin that had an awful carved in bassbar .The original tone was ghastly but I reshaped all the thicknesses and added a proper bassbar. As far as I could tell it seemed to be working but my implant kept interfering . I could hear lower strings fairly well .Anyway the Octave strings arrived from France today and they are fitted now . I also added a harp pernambuco tailpiece .
The low G string has a gorgeous ,almost double bass bite to it .I shall enjoy the release from my hearing restrictions . The E string with no fine adjuster is exactly on 1/6th vibrating length but the gut loop is showing a lot of ankle . I was not expecting that bonus Double Bass feel though .Nothing fuzzy there .
I can get back to the Bach Cello suites now .

[John Cadd]

I checked the after length again and I had made a mistake. The tailpiece needed to be further away from the bridge. But as far as I remember the screw adjusters on the tail loop were screwed right up . Then I noticed there are two loop sizes available. Also the tail pin looks at an angle instead of straight .If the shorter tail loop is no use I might fish in the spare nuts and bolts box for some tiny nuts to fit under the tailpiece loop screws.
I have a normal shaped tailpiece made of pernambuco .I bought it a long time ago when I was renovating the house and most days covered in plaster or dust . I had to postpone finer activities when that was happening .