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Michael Darnton
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 Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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The concept of uniformity and total interchangeability didn't exist, nor did science (especially as we now understand it) in the workshop. Nor did precise measuring tools.
What did exist, in abundance, were mathematics, and religion and divine influence. And the divine origin and influence of mathematics.
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ctviolin
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Darnton wrote: | Most violins aren't universally the same, either, but some are consistently better.
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Exactly.
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Lemuel
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Darnton wrote: | | ...What did exist, in abundance, were mathematics, and religion and divine influence. And the divine origin and influence of mathematics... |
...so would Stradivarius have obtained his inspirations through divine influence...? |
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ctviolin
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| Lemuel wrote: |
...so would Stradivarius have obtained his inspirations through divine influence...? |
Hmm, interesting question...
Seriously?
At that time all of Italy was essentially Catholic, right?
Actually - I'm thinking that most people alive in those days, at that particular location, may well have been "religious" by and from birth. Their religious affiliations may not have been as much "divinely inspired" as it was legally required, and bred in by virtue of societal acceptance, and what the social "norm" was.
Ahhh, Catholicism... where would we be without it?
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Michael Darnton
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:10 am Post subject: |
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I don't think that anyone would deny that intent is an important contributor to what we accomplish.
I have always tried to look at what I do in the context that "they" would have had--how they lived, how they thought, what they believed. One of the things they believed in was what some of us would now regard as superstitious views of how things happened.
The relevant term to search would be synchronicity, but I find that the concept, which belongs to Jung, who observed it but didn't feel the need to explain it, has been rewritten by materialists (My unsympathetic reading of materialism in general is that it maintains that what we don't currently understand isn't happening) to mean coincidence , which it definitely does not. It is more about connectedness without a definite, currently-explainable cause.
This is all about the dichotomy of idealism vs materialism. Here's an easy place to start: http://www.oocities.org/qiaorusi/ideal.html
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Lemuel
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:16 am Post subject: |
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I probably, but didn't intend to throw in a "monkey wrench".
But since Chet brought up the issue of mindset, I can only speak of what I've
observed, read about, and the people I've met along the way.
1. Those who come out with something unique and beneficial to the public (in any area of life)
do not appear to be influenced by the mindset of those around them (whether religious or academic).
2. They don't seem to be affected by ridicule or criticism. They are focused on the issue at hand
and not themselves, and that seems to eliminate the fear of the so called "peer pressure" that blocks
creativity and innovation.
3. They make tons of mistakes, but don't seem to be affected by mistakes or failure.
4. They are not concerned about winning or comparing themselves with other people.
5. They seem to be ruled by a "inner vision" or some "calling" that they say is "in their blood".
Whether it is the result of connectedness, oneness, synchronicity or coincidence with some
divine influence or inspiration, may never fully be settled in observers.
I cannot see Stradivarius being influenced by the religious mindset of his day.
One thing for sure, there are many matters of faith which we have taken for granted, but we cannot
touch, see or feel. We cannot see trust or faith itself, but exercise it everyday when we go to
work. Everything from the plane we fly, the cars we drive, the food we eat, all involve hundreds
of people along the way, that we have never met, but trust that what is produced will not harm us. |
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Michael Darnton
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Michael Darnton
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Dave Chandler
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Lemuel wrote: |
1. Those who come out with something unique and beneficial to the public (in any area of life)
do not appear to be influenced by the mindset of those around them (whether religious or academic).
2. They don't seem to be affected by ridicule or criticism. They are focused on the issue at hand
and not themselves, and that seems to eliminate the fear of the so called "peer pressure" that blocks
creativity and innovation.
3. They make tons of mistakes, but don't seem to be affected by mistakes or failure.
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They are not subject to (or have not participated in) intellectual inbreeding found in many institutions -- The fact that everyone agrees to an accepted principle doesn't necessarily make it true, so it may take an outsider to solve the riddle.
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Michael Darnton
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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You don't realize the extent to which you are taking a modern viewpoint. 450 years ago they didn't burn people at the stake for being heathens--they burned them for disagreeing with the church on the precise definition of the Trinity. Not being a Catholic was not even an option for someone who was supposed to be a Catholic.
The most striking thing that happened to me when I went to Florence was the realization of the full extent to which the great painters of the Renaissance were essentially painting wallpaper to order. I already knew that their clients dictated the subject matter, the composition, the positioning of the various elements, and specified the color pigments to be used, but I hadn't realized the magnitude and purpose of this work: pure decoration.
Their world was NOTHING like your world. Galileo didn't get in trouble with the church because of the specifics of his disagreements with the Church--he got in trouble because he thought he had the right to disagree with the Church at all.
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Lemuel
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:52 am Post subject: |
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Yes...yes....the context....I forgot.
Going along with the main thought of this thread, the context would be plate-tuning, along with it's
science, and perhaps everything since the Industrial revolution. The superstition mindset of this
day would be that it works. There is no persecution but perhaps peer pressure in the schools and
luthiers that teach it and the musicians that support it.
In regards to religious influence, I didn't conclude with proof that Stradivarius was not influenced
by religion. It was only a belief. Your example of Galileo seems to confirm it. However talent and
innovation can still flourish amidst oppressive brainwashing and propaganda, like it has for
centuries in China an currently in North Korea (which happens to be religious). |
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Michael Darnton
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| Lemuel wrote: | The superstition mindset of this
day would be that it works. There is no persecution but perhaps peer pressure in the schools and
luthiers that teach it and the musicians that support it. |
I'm glad you identify that as superstition. For the most part, working violin makers no longer are messing with plate tuning. In the transitional newsletter when the Catgut Acoustical Society joined the VSA there was a very short piece that I think most people missed: it was a statement about 15 lines long from Joe Curtin commenting on how plate tuning had turned out to be a dead end.
I suppose that schools still teach it, if they do, because the people who run schools don't have to make a living from the violins they make.
Actually, Stradivari's name shouldn't be in any context regarding revolutionary action or thinking. What he spent his life doing was criss-crossing through the past, including several times working off the best models of the Brothers Amati, which is basically what he settled into at the end.
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ctviolin
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Lemuel wrote: | Yes...yes....the context....I forgot.
However talent and innovation can still flourish amidst oppressive brainwashing and propaganda, like it has for
centuries in China an currently in North Korea (which happens to be religious). |
Yes.
Absolutely.
There is no stopping innovation in its basic form(s)... regardless of the controlling influences of such fundamental forces as "government" or "religion".
Government simply is what it is, and controlling influences in society are controlling, only on the surface of societal appearances generally.
Thought, as a property, is "divinely influenced" in every individual to put it in terms that are acceptable to some - and every one of us is capable of turning "things" around, in whatever manor becomes available to us by virtue of where and when we are born - and what our individual "gifts" or inclinations or drives, are...
Right?
That we, as individuals, are encased by our culture to certain degrees - is unavoidable. That we then act within certain parameters, is also unavoidable. How far we can stretch those parameters, in order to break free of the constraining aspects of ... lets call it "an accident of birth" is fundamental to the reality of what we accomplish in life, and why we accomplish that thing - any thing - instead of the myriad of, "other things", we may have accomplished?
How far indeed.
For example, we find it hard to push the limits of being "human beings". But this is exactly what most "geniuses" attempt to do. To push beyond the limits of what constrains us, and limits us, as humans...
That we may accomplish this, within whatever limits there are, is a large part of what makes these accomplishments seem impossible attain, or to recreate.
My thinking is that we never will recreate MANY such forgone accomplishments, today.
The only thing possible for us, is to master what is available to us, in this environment, and to bring that to whatever forefront becomes possible by virtue of that which our current thought modes, or thought processes and "technologies" will allow.
That is, how well we can really push the boundaries of these various pursuits.
With regard to violin making... even though it is a fairly simplistic thing with regard to outright philosophical thinking, and world or historical events - it is still the thing that we are basically considering here.
With regard to violin making, it should probably be taken in the, or with the idea that there were controlling religious/political ideologies extant at that (Cremonese) time, that were inherent in the thinking of the main makers that we attempt to unearth the thought processes of.
That is, if we consider their thought process important to uncover...
Which, I (for one) no longer consider such basic forgone things an important aspect of making - today.
There was a thought process extant then, and that it is no longer extant today. Though we can look back and see that they existed within a certain religious/political context, well, that fact is apparently true.
I can identify with this, because I was born as an Irish Catholic, and I only escaped the full impact of such a "contextual life training", because of a lucky accident... of sorts.
That I have gone beyond Catholicism, and into a rather diverse religious study, and then into a 'blank canvas' mentality, regarding religion as a whole, well, this has taken a back seat (if you will) into my 'violin making thought' currently.
The violin making knowledge that was extant in Strads time, was what was extant then. That it is no longer available to us today - in any form really, should be evident to most modern makers.
That there may have been a specific type of "knowledge" that makers of old used to obtain the results that they obtained, that is no longer evident... well, you try your best to finish this sentence - or this thought process.
I know that I cannot.
And it's not for a lack of trying.
And when I look around me, I know that, apparently, no one else can either.
Oh well, it's an interesting and almost illicit subject to consider with any depth, or with any reality here, or else where - where violins and their construction methods are discussed.
This is why the only thing I actually take as worth attention, is to be around the violins taken under consideration with regard to modern making or modern makers - to actually play them and/or to hear them being played.
How much of such considerations are "mental trickery" and how much of such considerations are concrete reality?
Well, you tell me.
Once again, all I can say is that I am aware of the considerations extant today, and I am also aware of MUCH of the realities surrounding them. But that I cannot answer these considerations with definite any certainty, puts me squarely in the "bystanders" category.
I don't mind being here mind you.
It's simply were I am.
(gulp!)
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Lemuel
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Darnton wrote: |
Actually, Stradivari's name shouldn't be in any context regarding revolutionary action or thinking. What he spent his life doing was criss-crossing through the past, including several times working off the best models of the Brothers Amati, which is basically what he settled into at the end. |
Ok then.........the mindset of Stradivarius is primarily Amati, not religious..... |
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Michael Darnton
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