Violin Forum/Message Board

mikebee · Junior Member Joined: 03 Mar 2011 Posts: 13 Location: UK

I have just inherited a partly built viola from a competent but now sadly deceased amateur stringed instrument maker.
The bass bar is beautifully fitted and shaped but I am a bit worried about the bulk of it. Its max. height is 14mm. which is OK of course, but the width is getting on for 8mm. which is surprising.

Is it likely that this extra couple of millimetres will affect the tone to an unacceptable extent? (I don't really want to have to replace it unless I'm advised that it is essential to do so!) Might the bar be acceptable at that width if I compensate by reducing the height - or does that sort of thing not work?

Michael Darnton · Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:52 am Post subject:

It probably won't matter much, but you can thin the bar that's in there by taking off the sides. Though the traditional shape is like the head of a bullet, there's also a variety that's straight sided, up to a top that's about 3mm wide, with a cross section like a very tall, narrow triangle with a truncated top, and that would probably take care of your extra weight on the bar.

I've done quite a bit of experimenting with bars, and they just don't matter as much as people want to think they do. The two things that matter the most are not turning your bar too much relative to the centerline of the instrument, and not cutting the ends down too low.
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rs · Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:21 am Post subject:

I made two 15 1/2" violas two years ago and the open C string on each started looping after about six months. I fixed the problem on the first one by putting a heavier bar on it. I intend to do the same on the second one if I ever get a hold of it and if I ever build a third that size, I will simply start with a heavier bar.
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rs · Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:43 am Post subject:

Michael, when you say "not turning your bar too much...", are you talking about avoiding a bar angle that is pinching in towards the neck block and that is not following the C string line?
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Randall Shenefelt

Michael Darnton · Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:54 am Post subject:

Yes.
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rs · Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:56 am Post subject:

Thank you.
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Randall Shenefelt

Cliff Green · Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:46 am Post subject:

rs
What is “string looping"?

rs · Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:17 am Post subject:

The open string takes on a wolf note characteristic except that it "drops out" and when looking down the instrument, the string is really erratic and tries to loop almost like a jump rope. It sounds bad and feels bad to the bow hand. I tried a heavier post and that fixed it for a week or so. But when it came back, I popped the top and replaced the bar with a heavier one. That fixed it.
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mikebee · Junior Member Joined: 03 Mar 2011 Posts: 13 Location: UK

Thank you Mr. Darnton for the advice and the interesting info.

I will re-shape it in-situ as you suggest.

actonern · Super Member Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 444

Michael, I recall reading somewhere that narrow/tall bars tend to result in an instrument with a darker timbre vs. less tall and wider bars.

Anything in this do you think?

Best regards,

E

Michael Darnton · Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:59 am Post subject:

Only if the person who said it put successive different bars in the same instrument, back and forth several times, and then tried it in other instruments, each one multiple times, as opposed to coming up with an idea that "sounds good". What do you think the chances of that are?
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actonern · Super Member Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 444

Michael Darnton · Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:46 pm Post subject:

That's the problem: when I started looking into what various bass bar placements did, the official lore from the old wives was that farther out both stiffened the top and "controlled" more of the top [I still have no idea what the effect of "controlling more of the top" was supposed to do, tonally.]

When I started running real experiments, repeatedly on the same violins, none of that held up. I subsequently discovered some unintended consequences of bar size that didn't have anything to do with bar stiffness at the bridge, that people had associated with stiffening the top at the bridge position.

Really, when you look at a lot of what violin makers think they know, it's a cesspool of bad logic supported with shaky experiments and inobservance, and the thing I've figured out is that they like it that way, they really prefer magical thinking, so . . .
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R Mac · Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:11 pm Post subject: