Violin Forum/Message Board

actonern · Super Member Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 444

From my limited experience, the maker pays a good deal more for truly pretty wood from suppliers.

Is that cost passed along to customers or does the maker eat the cost out of love of craft?

ctviolin · Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:43 am Post subject: Re: pretty wood premium

actonern · Super Member Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 444

The reason I ask, is that lots of established makers seem to have websites where they have a price schedule for violin, viola, and cello. They don't set out a range for each instrument, just a price. Sometimes I've seen prices differentiated for straight varnish jobs and antiqued, but never for "grade of wood used."

That's why I asked...

An example of what I mean...

http://www.violincello.com/prices.spml

Best regards,

E

Mat Roop · Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:26 pm Post subject:

CT is right... all costs are always factored into the total cost... but mark up from cost to get the selling price can be variable for a variety of reasons.
Maybe in the case you linked to they use only the best grade available.... I don't know... you could email them directly and ask.
I am not a maker but do a fair bit of restoration of violins & bows... I always buy the best quality available in the supplies I use, and I do that because the difference in cost is minimal compared the entire restoration/repair cost.
For example at my wholesale bulk cost the difference in bow hair quality for the best double select 32" Siberian, unbleached stallion hair is about $2.50/bow and I charge $55 for the entire rehair job. So why would I cheap out & use inferior hair? Quality is a standard I believe in and I have never competed on price because most serious clients are more interested in quality than price.
I could offer different prices for rehairs using different qualities of hair... but I don't and will not.
Hope this helps... Mat

MANFIO · Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:31 pm Post subject:

In my experience with my clients I've noticed that they do prefer sound and playability to beauty. They will give a quick look in the instrument (in general they are more interested in the overall appearance, they will not pay attention to details as we do) and ask for the chinrest or bow and start playing. The final decision will be based on sound.

But that with my clients, most of them are pro players in good orchestras, over 40 years and already have a good instrument.

But selling is difficult, if you find that pretty wood helps selling, go ahead!!!
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Chet Bishop · Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:29 pm Post subject:

I don't think I have ever had a player admit that looks were really important to them, except Adam LaMotte, who recounted that a friend had made a viola for him to try out, and, though it sounded great, it looked terrible. He sadly told his friend, "I'm sorry...I can't be seen with this thing." He has to consider what his audience sees, as well.

Virtually every player tells me that sound is the only thing that counts with them. But I have watched at VSA competition, when all the instruments are available to be played, and no one tries the plain-looking instruments...they try the pretty ones.

Charles Beare stated publicly that, in his experience, "...unattractive instruments do not get played." I think that reflects reality.

As Mat pointed out, the cost of materials is a pretty small portion of the cost of the instrument. Your 100 (or however many) hours of labor cost the same whether the wood is expensive or free. Why not use the best you can afford?
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Lemuel · Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:52 am Post subject:

Chet Bishop · Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:35 am Post subject:

Sorry, Lemuel, I don't recall-- that was several years ago. Charles Beare, of course, is catering to high-ranking professionals.

I think it is just human nature. We are initially attracted by what we see, then move on to discovering real values. It seems to be true across the board, not just regarding fiddles... Cars, houses, spouses...tools, horses, etc. Some people learn to look beyond the surface, fairly early. Others never do.

I think you (and Luis) are noticing people who are wise enough to look beyond surface appearance immediately, and to reject an instrument that lacks playing quality. The problem, in Luis' case, is that ALL his instruments look beautiful...so there has never been a real test with one that looked very ordinary, but had a heavenly voice. Smile

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MANFIO · Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:39 am Post subject:

Chet, you are right, player's rejection is mainly related to varnish, too bright reds or oranges will be rejected.

My main concern with instruments is sound, but they MUST have a good luck, otherwise they will not sell, even if they sound darn good. I love this part of HILL`S book on Stradivari:

"If players would be content with instruments treated with colourless varnish, the difficulty of producing fine tone would be very greatly dimisnished, as the addition of many and various injurious colouring substances, or the artificial staining of the wood (at sometimes accomplished by the use of acids) in order to please the eye, in the one case mars what would be a varnish favourable for tone, and in the other adversely affects the material from which the instrument is made. In fact, tone is, and has been, though often unintentionally, sacrified by many through seeking to gratify the taste for mere outward appearence. ... ...

Could we have seen the most brilliant works of Italian violin-makers fresh form their hands, we should have been not a little surprised by their bright and unsubdued aspect; nay, in many instances, notably with regard to some of the violins of Joseph Guarnerius, we would have been struck by their positively crude appearance. The conditions for ultimately ensureing a fine appearance were certainly there; but to the wonder-working effects of time and use, and to these alone, we unhesitatingly attibute all that charms us now. That the more ambitious of modern makers should have sought to rival the productions of the old masters in external appearance is readily conceivable - however injudicious at times their procedure - when we bear in mind the popular demand for athing of beauty. An ugly or even plain instrument, though excellent in tone, is again and again rejected. Many may view this statement with incredulity; it is nevertheless strictly true, and the statement is the outcome of innumerable experiences." (see the chapter on varnish).

It was true one hundred years ago. It's true today.
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Lemuel · Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:18 pm Post subject:

MANFIO · Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:22 pm Post subject:

Knowing your target market is very important, we produce different instruments for different players.

So, in a given moment it is good having a clear idea of your target market. .

My recent instruments have less texture in the varnish, we makers understand texture but most musicians don't and it is hard to change the world we live in. I receive the principal of our orchestra for a test drive in my recent violin some days ago, I had two bridges for the violin, one lower and the other higher. He preferred the lower one.

Whenever I meet a top musician I ask "What can I do better?". In many cases I got valuable tips.
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Chet Bishop · Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:55 am Post subject:

You have handed out some pretty generous tips, yourself, my friend. And I really appreciate your sharing.
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ctviolin · Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:44 pm Post subject:

Chet Bishop · Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:09 pm Post subject:

Once I have set my string height over the fingerboard, that kinda "locks in" the height of the bridge. But some folk like the string height higher or lower. I suppose that could account for the two bridges. I'm anxious to hear Manfio's reply.
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MANFIO · Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:18 pm Post subject:

Hi Craig, you are correct about the sound changes related to bridge heigh.

This was the first time I was going to show an instrument to this player so I had no information about his playing style and preferences, hence my decision to prepare two bridges.

Some players explore the bow weight and will prefer a high bridge, others will explore more the bow speed and will prefer a lower bridge.

I started showing the instrument with the higher one and when I mentioned I had a lower one ready to use he wanted to try it on the spot. It was good because he was able to compare the sound of the two bridges since the change was very quick.

I may use this idea in the future again, I think. I like Oscar Wilde's quote "You never get a second chance to make a first impression."
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