Violin Forum/Message Board

[Bill Chambers]

Greetings,

I am new to this site and thread. I am new to “building” a violin. I have been playing, or rather attempting to play for about 1.25 years now. I am 49 years old and am doing so due to the significant amount of “brain” research regarding the degeneration of the brain and Alzheimer’s disease. The latest studies demonstrate that if you pick up something new. The new thing that you pick up has to be totally new to the brain and difficult, very difficult … thus I chose the violin. But, by doing so one can slow the aging of the brain, create new synapses, and etc…and hopefully squeeze out a few extra exciting years of life. I am a physician. The study of something that you are already proficient at will not create the new synapses and such, the “new thing” has to be hard, continuously difficult and continuous learning that may take you 10 to 15 years to master. WOW! My little girl is from China, she is a sweetheart of a little girl, and she has her on violin and practices for 20 minutes each evening. Life is great.

Thus, to get to the violin part of the discussion. I have been playing on a cheaply made Chinese violin. It has served its purpose. I have been searching for a new violin for over 2 months, and one of the greatest findings has been that so many of the 1K to 2K or 3K violins are white violins started by a large manufacturing violin house somewhere, and finished by a company, called there own, labeled there own, and there is basically no difference in the “mass production models” that are $750 bucks or the one that is $3000. The 3K violins have better appearance of the grain. And as far as the sound you may as well go ahead and purchase a nice white violin and finish it yourself and you may [ note that I said “may” ] end up with the same quality violin that might retail for 5k or 7K, obtain a better built violin and built to higher standards, or maybe not.

THUS HERE I GO. I purchased a white violin from internationalviolins. The violin is made in Bulgaria and shipped into the US. From what I could discover this was proablably the best white violin on the “retail” market without going to a specific builder. So I purchased the http://www.internationalviolin.com/SearchByCategory.aspx?CategoryCode=58
[ 3725G White Violin, King Guarnerius Model ]
http://www.internationalviolin.com/images/items/zoom/3073G.jpg


I plan on taking this white violin from start to the final stages. I do know that there is a violin shop in Cincinnati that sells this exact violin for 8K !!! And labels the violin as his own. Wow!!

Thus I ask the readers of this thread … What do you know about the White Vioin King Guarnerius Model Sold by International Violins ??? This is my starting point. Much more to come.

And I will need help along the path of this build and all constructive help is appreciated.

Thank you,

[rs]

Your question is a threefold question. First, if you are looking to make a violin for your daughter to play, or yourself for that matter, I think it is a bad idea unless you have already developed the skill to do so. The reason is that if it is not a good instrument, you will basically be saddling her with something difficult (if not impossible) to master, even though made by loving hands at home.

Second if you are looking to fight Alzheimers (or even Sometimers!), this is a great idea. Starting with a kit might put you on a path to making violins. This would help the brain in the same fashion as playing would.

As for the kit quality, this one appears to be adequate. There is a misconception here, however. Many believe that simply making all the parts correctly assures a fine assembled product. Nothing is further from the truth in violin making. If you were to make two violins from any kit, and they, trough the luck of the draw, each sounded fine when finished, would likely sound like dogs if the parts of each were dissassembled and interchanged. In other words, unless the parts are made not only correctly, but complementary to one another, the instrument's fate is only the result of fortune. This is why it takes a person with skill and experience to make a violin play to maximum potential.

Best wishes and hope this helps.
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Randall Shenefelt

[Michael Darnton]

Another curve ball here: you do not know whether the $8000 violin you are comparing yours to has had additional work to bring it up to a higher standard. Often mass-produced instruments fall short of what can be done, and a shop that is selling them may open them up and do additional things to justify their higher price, which first, you don't know about, and second, may or may not be able to do.

Also, their experience with that particular model may have shown them what they consistently need to do to correct problems with the white instrument to make it their "own", and this is a learning curve you can't have on just one.

Of course, you can just paint it up, and then see what you might want to go back and reconfigure. That's completely possible.
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new blog at my site! http://darntonviolins.com/blog
my work sites: http://darntonviolins.com and http://darntonhersh.com

[Chris Knowlton]

Hello Bill and welcome to the forum.

I find your “brain extender” information to be very interesting. If I read your post correctly you are purchasing a complete violin in the white not a kit. You will find a lot of help here and in other forums in choosing and applying a finish. If you decide to build a violin, a very gratifying experience that I whole-heartedly recommend, I expect that you might very much enjoy it and no doubt accumulate some extra brain benefits.

I have built only one violin so I am no expert. It took over three years of part-time fun to learn the various disciplines and complete the violin. I made the violin for my daughter who plays in the Raleigh Civic Symphony. It is a much better instrument than the one she previously used so it was a win-win.

Good luck and have fun,
Chris
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I make sawdust mostly

[Bill Chambers]

Hello,

Thanks for helping.

The violin purchased is a “white violin” that is full size [ 4/4 ]. The violin will be for me, not for my little girl. This is a completed, fully built up white violin, not a kit. Thus, help me out here, but my first chore will be … learning to varnish.

The bottom plate and top plate and such are completely constructed and glued up, the neck is fully glued on. The fingerboard is just “tack” glued on and is removable for varnishing. Again this is not a kit, and is my understanding this is produced by a highly skilled violinmaker in Bulgaria. It is my hope that there is nothing internally to be done to the violin. For those reading this thread you may or can “click” on the links above and a picture of the violin will pull up on your internet browser. ?? Are any of you familiar with the white violin purchased??

My goal is to learn to play the violin. In the mean time, have some fun doing such. I have ordered two hand made violins to tryout and see how I like them and buy one or both or send them back. They are in the 3 K range. My other goal and the purpose of this thread is to finish a white violin fore which the body and neck have already been produced. The violin will need to be varnished, finished, pegs, chinrest, stings, etc… attached, and with this I seek your help. The violin should arrive next week.

My next questions will be about varnishing, thus, those that want to, go ahead and chime in here. ?? Any suggestions on books, videos etc … to purchase and your own thoughts and skills ?? Thank you for helping.

[rs]

Starting with a white instrument, my recommendation would be to string the instrument up in the white and play it. The first thing, then, is to learn how to correctly set an instrument up. This would mean to correctly fit a bridge, pegs, post, nut, saddle, tailpiece, strings, etc. Far too many tonal or playing issues can easily be remedied through set-up or set-up adjustment. Therefore, if out of the box you start with correct procedures, you will be able to address goals for the instrument down the line. Without this skill, no matter what you have going on, good or bad, the instrument is destined for failure.

I learned through hard work, talking to other makers, watching them, etc. I had never found a good book on proper set-up, (and I looked for years), until I found the chapters below. They are articulate, brief, and yet essentially contain everything a novice or craftsman needs to know. I have always worked hard to set an instrument up correctly, but I learned much from these articles even now, and I have been working on violins for almost 34 years.

http://violinmag.com/

Best wishes and hope this helps.
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Randall Shenefelt

[Bill Chambers]

Thank you, excellent recommendation. I understand your thinking process. By “stringing up” the instrument initially then any problems would be identified first and then a competent violinmaker could correct the problems.

?? Where do I start with varnish ?? I was thinking of getting a sheet of plywood with a maple veneer, cutting this into 1-foot by 1-foot sections and practice a varnish and finish technique before going to the violin. Is this a good starting point or would you suggest a different wood or surface to practice on ??

I will work on ordering the strings, bridge, chin rest, … “complete set” for the violin. I have noticed many places to order from.

I will study your link for the set up. I saved it in my favorites.

Thank you.

[rs]

The best thing to practice your varnish techniques is a violin. Plywood does not have ribs, peg boxes, soundholes, corners or scoops. Rather than practice on your violin, however, a good way to do this is to buy cheap white Chinese instruments. Practice on these, and it will help you get a feel for what to expect on your violin.

Varnish is a whole new dimension. The space shuttle was built with less thought than has gone into violin varnish.

My own recommendation, and this is based on how I actually build violins and may differ greatly from the method that others follow, is to pay attention to the white instrument first. Get it the best you possibly can by first developing set-up technique. Afterwards, move forward to refining the tone, response and ease of play. Once you are satisfied with this at the white level, move on to varnish preparation. I make violins in this manner still, that is, I do not entertain varnishing the instrument until I am satisfied with the calibre of the white instrument. (I also remove some of the wood AFTER I am satisfied with the white instrument to compensate for the weight of the varnish, but that is another story). For me, this approach gives me the most consistant results. Concurrently with your white instrument set up, develop your varnish skills on throw-away units. When you are satisfied with each, the white instrument and the varnish technique, the two can be wed.
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Randall Shenefelt

[FiddleDoug]

Don't forget about the tools that you will need. At a minimum, you'll need a peg shaper and reamer to fit the pegs, a plane for bridge shaping, and a knife or two for other bridge work. Just as important as the tools would be a book or two to give you the proper information for the set-up.
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Doug Wall

www.wallindependent.com

[mr_violin]

Hi Bill
When you said: “I do know that there is a violin shop in Cincinnati that sells this exact violin for 8K !!! And labels the violin as his own. Wow!!
The “Cincinnati shop” you are talking about that are buying the same white violin and selling for 8K ,I am sure that they are not just varnishing them and setting them up and selling them.
If it was that easy everyone would be doing that. You should ask them what they do to them .
I bet they are taking them apart and reworking the inside of them.
With what you are planning to do, you still can get a nice violin, but just not a 8K violin.
I wish you good luck and have fun. Don`t think of this as your last one. You should keep doing more until you can make the violin that is worth 8K out of one of these white violins.
Larry Lewis

[Bill Chambers]

Hello,

Thanks for the article on the set up. The composition and writing is done very well. I have read thousands of books, mostly medical related, yuck, … but this book that Mr. Darnton is composing is excellent. I am working on the first 10 pages currently.

The white violin arrived, even though, I am a neophyte regarding violin, the construction seems appropriate and seems to be of the quality I have been seeking.

I spent a lot of time on the internet ordering all the items to get ‘er started,,,, peg-chin rest sets, files, sound post, sound post gauge, sound post setting tool, peg hole reamer, stings, bridges, etc, … and etc… and two cases. One for the real violin I am to purchase and this one that I will finish. I do not want to use the word “build” since I have not built the violin.

This is fun, thanks for your direction. RS, FiddleDoug, and Larry thanks for your help. Yep, I did buy all that stuff. Tons of stuff for getting started. This is fun. Thanks again. The guy selling me all these tools had fun too, he said, that I seemed like a kid in a toyshop … then I would say and lets get this … and this, and 2 of these and on and on. Excellent fun.

So … right now I am reading the “set-up” by Mr. Darnton and Violin Making by Bruce Ossman. I will try to finish the “set-up” by Mr. Darnton within 2 to 3 more days, and then re-read it and make notes. All of my supplies should be here in a week, and then as RS suggested, I will start the set up, and make some music. Thanks Again !!

[rs]

Bill, before starting to follow the Ossman book, you might seriously consider word searching "Ossman" on this site and see what others have to say about the book. It might help you re-think your use of it.

Just a thought. Hope your instrument(s) turn(s) out well.
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Randall Shenefelt

[Bill Chambers]

Hello,

First thanks for your help. And thanks to all who have “private messaged” me and for the phone numbers as well. Things have moved along extremely well. Here is a link to my other hobby. I have 18 planes in all and this is probably one of the best hobbies in the entire world.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/community/profile.cfm?section=gallery&memid=156113

Thus my woodworking and understanding skills are pretty well developed, regarding “putting things together”.

I have fully “set up the violin” and have played the violin. I am very pleased. The music and sound of the violin, this is exactly what I have been seeking. Thanks for your help.

Here is a list of DVD’s that I ordered and have watched. I did next day or 2 day shipping and then spent hours watching the DVD’s regarding the set up. I have not watched the DVD’s on the varnishing.

If, for those that are just starting their white violin, then, those that run across this thread might want to watch these as well. Books, friends, blogs, email, and DVD’s … all great resources.

Disc Fifteen- Ch 24 Pegs, fingerboard, bridge, setup -InternationalViolinCompany
Disc Fourteen- Ch 23 Varnish Part 2 at InternationalViolinCompany
Disc Thirteen- Ch 22 Varnish Part 1 at InternationalViolinCompany
Disc Twelve - Ch 21 Edgework & Final Polish at InternationalViolinCompany
Cutting and Fitting a Bridge and Sound Post - DVD at InternationalViolinCompany
Installing Pegs and Endpins - DVD at InternationalViolinCompany
Varnishing a Violin DVD 2nd Edition, Deluxe at InternationalViolinCompany
Violin Setup Produced by Dan Erlewine at Stewmac.com
DVD guide to traditional violin finishingHow To Spirit Varnish at Stewmac.com

Thanks for you help.

[Bill Chambers]

Pegs and Box … Question.

Regarding the pegs … My pegs are made of Mahogany. The peg trimming went well.

Now that the pegs are trimmed, fitted, sanded, ?? What should I treat the Mahogany with, i.e. mineral oil, or linseed oil ?? Or nothing. Then I see that some builders us a wax, or crayon to then treat the wood where the peg wood will meet the wood of the box.
?? Do you treat the Mahogany or just leave it natural ??
?? Do you treat the wood of the box, where you reamed out to make the hole??

Suggestions please.

Thank you

[rs]

The color is up to you. Stain works well; nitric acid works better and was done this way for decades. For obvious reasons (aside from burns and chemical pneumonia) I recommend stain. I wouldn't recommend French polish of the shaft or anything that could cause them to stick. I sand the shaft with very fine micromesh and a dot of olive oil. Hill Peg Compund is considered the best treatment for the pegs where they contact the box. It comes in a "lipstick" tube and should be applied to the pegs. The pegs won't slip or click much if they mate all around and don't have flat spots. Fitting pegs can be tricky. If the peg is bearing more on the end near the thumbpiece, they tend to click more I have found. If they are bearing more on the side away from the thumbpiece they tend to flex when turned. Ideally, the peg should bear evenly on each side. Just looking at the ends isn't sufficient for me. I put a dot of Hill Peg Compund on each side of the peg and make sure it is transferring evenly to the box on each side on a trial piece. If not, I adjust accordingly. Once fit correctly, I put much peg compound on the pegs (the instructions say sparingly apply, but I am liberal as are many other makers) and keep working the peg back and forth. When done, the inside of the hole is black.
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Randall Shenefelt