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Lemuel
Site Admin
Joined: 12 Aug 2010
Posts: 515
Location: Mt. Elgin, Ontario
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 Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Catgut wrote: | ...no I think everyone else is missing the point here. I posted informally wanting a luthier apprenticeship I didn't know every little word I typed would be included in my permanent record as they use to say.
there's been absolutely nothing said that is supportive or helpful. Just a whole lot of flaming. everyone who's posted to this really needs o get together and form some sort investigative company, because you people are geniuses. Every one of you were able to nail everything about me just by reading less than a page of what I typed on a phone.....
...it comes down to this I'm a damn good woodworker and unless you're a master luthier asking me to send him or her a letter formally introducing myself and what I can bring to the table, then you really don't have anything to offer me.
If you aren't my master then you are just another bored person on the forum who gets no better thrill than when they are picking someone apart to make themselves look superior.
someone wrote that they think I'm missing the point. I think you nailed it. this was not a letter to a luthier it was an informal post in a forum. Why is everyone treating this trivial piece of crap I wrote like it was a formal letter to the sorbonne (and I intentionally didn't capitalize the word Sorbonne). |
It is clear your main point is to find a luthier apprenticeship in your area.
Although it is a bit surprising that the responses veered of in a different direction, I am glad it did. After looking at your posts, I wonder if any master luthier reading this would be willing to write such a letter of recommendation for you.
You see, apprenticeship is a two way relationship. It is not only technical (details of trade) but spiritual (friends). If your response to a master luthier on the details of typographical errors (and it was done out of a need for clarification, not to flame you) is not taken with grace, how are you going to take a master luthier's corrections on violin making which is in the order of several hundred times in detail?
Again, your point in seeking a luthier apprenticeship is well taken...however for your sake, the point on "attitudes" is an equally valid point. |
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Catgut
Junior Member
Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Lemuel wrote: | | Catgut wrote: | ...no I think everyone else is missing the point here. I posted informally wanting a luthier apprenticeship I didn't know every little word I typed would be included in my permanent record as they use to say.
there's been absolutely nothing said that is supportive or helpful. Just a whole lot of flaming. everyone who's posted to this really needs o get together and form some sort investigative company, because you people are geniuses. Every one of you were able to nail everything about me just by reading less than a page of what I typed on a phone.....
...it comes down to this I'm a damn good woodworker and unless you're a master luthier asking me to send him or her a letter formally introducing myself and what I can bring to the table, then you really don't have anything to offer me.
If you aren't my master then you are just another bored person on the forum who gets no better thrill than when they are picking someone apart to make themselves look superior.
someone wrote that they think I'm missing the point. I think you nailed it. this was not a letter to a luthier it was an informal post in a forum. Why is everyone treating this trivial piece of crap I wrote like it was a formal letter to the sorbonne (and I intentionally didn't capitalize the word Sorbonne). |
It is clear your main point is to find a luthier apprenticeship in your area.
Although it is a bit surprising that the responses veered of in a different direction, I am glad it did. After looking at your posts, I wonder if any master luthier reading this would be willing to write such a letter of recommendation for you.
You see, apprenticeship is a two way relationship. It is not only technical (details of trade) but spiritual (friends). If your response to a master luthier on the details of typographical errors (and it was done out of a need for clarification, not to flame you) is not taken with grace, how are you going to take a master luthier's corrections on violin making which is in the order of several hundred times in detail?
Again, your point in seeking a luthier apprenticeship is well taken...however for your sake, the point on "attitudes" is an equally valid point. |
I completely see your point and thank you. and I understand about a 2 way street and the part about friends and spirituality, but no one here except you have attempted to enter that realm. from the responses I've gotten I wouldn't consider having any of these people for my friends.
I've been taught in abused by the best of them. I learn cabinet tree from a master received his training at Oxford. m pretty sure that 1 of you probably pulled your breakfast dishes out of a cabinet I built. I was taught how to build guitars by Scott Gorsuch a master guitar builder and recording artist in Columbus Ohio. I work for 4 years for Bunn=Minnick Pipe Organs producing some of the finest instruments in the world.
The first guitar I made had pretty nice intonation for being built before I learned from Scott. And in all my years I've never had a problem with learning, or my quality of work and I've never ever been disrespectful of someone teaching me.
it's funny though, how everyone here knows everything about me from a few typographical errors. |
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actonern
Super Member
Joined: 15 Aug 2007
Posts: 444
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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"...m pretty sure that 1 of you probably pulled your breakfast dishes out of a cabinet I built."
Zelig, rediscovered!!! |
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L P Reedy
Super Member
Joined: 02 Apr 2009
Posts: 276
Location: Brevard, NC
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Catgut wrote: | | this was not a letter to a luthier it was an informal post in a forum. Why is everyone treating this trivial piece of crap I wrote like it was a formal letter to the sorbonne (and I intentionally didn't capitalize the word Sorbonne). |
Actually, it was a letter to a whole bunch of luthiers, asking for help in YOUR search for an apprenticeship. If you think it was a "trivial piece of crap," why did you bother us with it in the first place? My advice is to do your own search. And if you already know so much, why do you need an apprenticeship? |
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Benedict White
Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 113
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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As a comment... perhaps the OP should go away and come back with a new user name, and try to appreciate that the world in which he wishes to take part in is a small one, and it does not pay, when asking for help to answer back.
I have learnt so much with my mouth shut, and my ears open. I have only one of the former and two of the latter for a reason. |
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Catgut
Junior Member
Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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wow what an arrogant bunch of jerks. god forbid someone dying of thirst should come up anyone of you and ask "can I have a glass of water"? They would die of thirst whole you made fun of him. Then I can see you laughing because he died.
I just asked for help. That's all I asked. and I asked nicely.
Let this serve as a warning to anyone who needs help (*** Forum M.***).
You people are nothing but bullies, plain and simple. And you are afraid of competition. Instead of going me, you hinder me. And you've never seen my work so I can only surmise that the ones who flamed me (*** Forum M.***), can't produce anything better than a purely made cigar box violin.
I'm unchecking reply notification because you have shown that you can't be helpful. |
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Catgut
Junior Member
Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| L P Reedy wrote: | | Catgut wrote: | | this was not a letter to a luthier it was an informal post in a forum. Why is everyone treating this trivial piece of crap I wrote like it was a formal letter to the sorbonne (and I intentionally didn't capitalize the word Sorbonne). |
And if you already know so much, why do you need an apprenticeship? |
Did you see one mention of making violins in my list of experience? You are a suuuuuuper genius. |
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mr_violin
Member
Joined: 15 Sep 2009
Posts: 52
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:13 am Post subject: |
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Catgut,
Your biggest mistake has been that you should thank the people that are trying to help you.
I don’t think you know how bad you make yourself look by the way you are answering some of the most knowledgeable and helpful people on this forum.
Larry Lewis |
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Mat Roop
Senior Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 911
Location: Wyoming Ontario
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:49 am Post subject: |
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Catgut... If you are still reading... we are here to help.
1- Many significant luthiers read this forum... so your letter was to luthiers.
2- Mistake made, be humble and show that you have learned. That is experience.
3-What's with the Castro reference? Just that comment would cause me to think twice about hiring
4-There are 2 kinds of people.. those that have 10 year's of experience, and those that have 1 year of experience 10 times. I always hire the first kind.
Good luck to you Catgut... keep reading this forum and you will learn a lot!
Mat |
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Lemuel
Site Admin
Joined: 12 Aug 2010
Posts: 515
Location: Mt. Elgin, Ontario
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, Catgut.
Say you are right then, here are some suggestions of what I would do in your case.
1. Google or search local directories in your are for "Violin makers" or "Violin Luthier". You can append the symbol "+" to the keyword to indicate a conjoint search. For example, +"violin luthier" +"California" (quotes included) would pull up references to webpages containing both the keywords "violin luthier" and "California".
2. Contact your local major orchestra (any major Performing Arts center will also do) to ask for violin players. Then ask them who their luthiers are.
3. Search for violin teachers in your area and then find out who their luthiers are.
4. With your experience and work you have done, as you have stated, go back to the people you have worked with, to obtain letters of recommendation. They are the ones who know you best. With your qualifications, you should not have any problems.
5. Look over the posts on this forum for valuable violin making info and continue to post any question you have. As Mat says, we are really here to help you.
Some closing remarks and observations:
1. Like yourself, I don't enjoy the flaming that goes on forums either. The interesting thing is that most who feel flamed at, wind up falling into the same base level of the flamer, and flame right back (and I would appreciate if you could refrain from using coarse language). A person with higher integrity and maturity will not flame back.
2. You responded in regards to "friendship". In order to make friends, you first have to be a friend. In most cases (if not all), conflicts involve our pride, and it is not so much external, but internal. Genuine humility is the basis of good friendships.
3. You also mentioned about people knowing you on a few typographical errors - it wasn't this. Rather, people get to know you by the way you respond to correction, trials and conflicts, how you handle difficulties, for this is where the inner man is revealed.
I wish you the best of success. |
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Chad48309
Member
Joined: 26 Sep 2010
Posts: 110
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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Mother of Mercy ... I take a forum sabbatical for a few days to focus on some schoolwork and this juicy discussion slips by!
_________________
-C.S. |
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Will L
Junior Member
Joined: 06 Mar 2011
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Catgut,
My first thought was that this whole thing is an April Fool's joke, off by one day. You have been given advice by at least one absolute master builder, teacher, and shop owner, who seems to be wasting his time.
The craft is a very old and honored one, and it doesn't do anyone any good to start, or end for that matter, with a bad attitude.
It's been my experience on these sites that very great experts are willing to give very good advice for free. The fact that sometimes the advice is a bit strong and acerbic doesn't make it the less valid. I believe you have been given a primer, and if you can take advantage of it, I hope in the future you do find a "master" and go on to produce wonderful violins or do great repairs.
By the way, I hope I'm not also wasting my time.
Will |
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Michael Darnton
Moderator
Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 1347
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:14 am Post subject: |
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I wanted to let the dust settle a bit before I mentioned that every single person who I've thought about hiring I have checked on the internet to see what I can find out about who they are and where they've been. Even in the course of this discussion, I checked the "references" Catgut gave to see who they were and what kind of influences they might have been. Of course, if you check those references now, this thread pops up at the top for everyone to see. "Permanent record", indeed. The internet is a mighty tool!
_________________
new blog at my site! http://darntonviolins.com/blog
my work sites: http://darntonviolins.com and http://darntonhersh.com |
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Will L
Junior Member
Joined: 06 Mar 2011
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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Catgut,
I ran out of time yesterday, but want to mention that while I don't know any Bay Area makers who might take you on in some fashion, there is a class that meets twice a year in San Rafael. The members are very helpful and supportive. The teacher is a first rate maker but doesn't live in the Bay Area.
Also, in November of 2012 the Violin Society of America competition will be held in San Francisco. You'll be able to meet all the local makers, as they'll surely all be there.
Will |
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Chad48309
Member
Joined: 26 Sep 2010
Posts: 110
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Darnton wrote: | | I wanted to let the dust settle a bit before I mentioned that every single person who I've thought about hiring I have checked on the internet to see what I can find out about who they are and where they've been. Even in the course of this discussion, I checked the "references" Catgut gave to see who they were and what kind of influences they might have been. Of course, if you check those references now, this thread pops up at the top for everyone to see. "Permanent record", indeed. The internet is a mighty tool! |
Indeed, and for this very reason, my employment opportunities are limited to working under those who believe, as I do, in fighting, drinking, fast cars, and loose women.
And I'm okay with that.
_________________
-C.S. |
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