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Michael Darnton
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Chad48309
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 Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Darnton wrote: | | "Could have" is parsecs from "did". They "could have" summoned the souls of dead Egyptians priests to align their violins with the fundamental laws of the universe, too. |
Or "Correlation does not equal causation."
But I like yours better.
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actonern
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| Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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Would we be wise then to copy rather more faithfully the variations in thicknesses of the Strad poster models we are making?
Or is that a fool's errand... that the success of those celebrated instruments were "happy accidents" that if copied may or may not result in beneficial outcomes?
If the latter, does the huge output of the golden period follow a random statistical bell curve just like today... good ones, average ones and bad ones, where our focus only on the good ones today mistakenly creates the impression that they were on to something special?
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John Cadd
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| Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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So that`s what Stonehenge was for ! No but seriously. For a new amateur maker who is groping in the dark I think good advice would be to understand that violinmaking is like a mixture of Football (our kind ),Football (your kind ) , Rugby League, Rugby Union , and Australian Rules all on the same pitch. The large differences hidden by a surface similarity. Just as they are all on grass , kicking and catching a ball , using lines , referees , corner flags and posts.
I read a short description of the maker Alfio Batelli on the Amac site .His making method was to have a strong centre section , probably for strength and stability , and tapering off towards the sides.That is another approach to making a violin. It sounds deliciously simple. I have to report that he also tuned his plate a tone apart. The old records of makers details from their actual instruments can be notoriously unreliable.Many disagreements over very famous violins come down to inefficient measuring. So they say. |
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Michael Darnton
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| Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| actonern wrote: | | Would we be wise then to copy rather more faithfully the variations in thicknesses of the Strad poster models we are making? |
I think copying them is smarter than making everything 2.70mm + or - .05, yes.
Just to be clear: I'm not saying this from theory, but from actually making violins this way and seeing the difference. Pudding>proof, all that stuff.
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Last edited by Michael Darnton on Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:46 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Janito
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| Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Darnton wrote: | | "Could have" is parsecs from "did". They "could have" summoned the souls of dead Egyptians priests to align their violins with the fundamental laws of the universe, too. |
In the absence of concrete evidence either way, the possibility remains that either occurred.
I like the ring of woods, so I tap incessantly; maybe Strad did too.  |
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Michael Darnton
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| Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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Ah, what Bob Bein used to call "the flawed idea that the parts of musical instruments should themselves be musical"; sort of like the concept that painters of beautiful paintings should be beautiful people.
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actonern
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| Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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Michael you've posted often about your overall philosophy of making as one that tries to immerse the mind in the 18th century "zeitgeist."
To the extent you can do that is it your view that the baroque makers were generally more focused on the aesthetic beauty of the instrument...shape, proportions, varnish, color, etc. and that sound was less fussed over than it is today...or at least that dimensional tolerances as a function of sound were (except within broad parameters) unimportant in their thinking as makers? |
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Janito
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| Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Darnton wrote: | | Ah, what Bob Bein used to call "the flawed idea that the parts of musical instruments should themselves be musical"; sort of like the concept that painters of beautiful paintings should be beautiful people. |
Not quite - more akin to the coloured pigments being beautiful (eg lapis lazuli) and then making a beautiful picture.
Strad had a huge hooked nose, but that would not have prevented him from tapping: Rat-atat-tat. |
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Oded Kishony
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| Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | To the extent you can do that is it your view that the baroque makers were generally more focused on the aesthetic beauty of the instrument...shape, proportions, varnish, color, etc. and that sound was less fussed over than it is today |
I won't presume to answer for Michael, he's usually capable of doing it himself. Nevertheless....
I would answer your question with the following question: How often do you have customers come to your shop, look over all the instruments and say
"I'll take that pretty one over there? "
Never happens. Some musicians seem to look at the instrument as an afterthought. Of course a beautiful instrument may get noticed but if it doesn't sound great it doesn't get sold. 90% of customers will pick an instrument that sounds better than one that looks better. In fact I often encourage folks to do 'blind listening' tests so that the beauty of the instrument or it's parts wouldn't influence the decision. This is especially true of young girls.
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Michael Darnton
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| Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| actonern wrote: | | . . .is it your view that the baroque makers were generally more focused on the aesthetic beauty of the instrument...shape, proportions, varnish, color, etc. and that sound was less fussed over than it is today...or at least that dimensional tolerances as a function of sound were (except within broad parameters) unimportant in their thinking as makers? |
First, remember that Andrea Amati had only strange, ineffective instruments to compare himself with. He had no Stradivari to beat. Second, it appears that the violin worked well right from the start, without a lot of experimentation; the original design was, for whatever reason, a good one. Third, they weren't really making the instrument we now play. I think they stumbled on something that was pretty darned good because of the happy convergence of a bunch of things, and then that defined the mark to measure by. . . and then we forgot how to make that object. I don't think there's any huge mystery about it, and I certainly don't believe in magic.
Graduations are a great example. Measure the instruments of post-industrial revolution people who are trying to "replicate" great instruments, including Vuillaume, and you'll find that they apply a level of precision to grads that is in no way appropriate to the original model. Doing it right isn't magic; what else do you think might have gone unobserved or unappreciated? I would put it this way: makers of the last 200 years have been very impressed by measurement, but at the same time extremely unobservant.
I'm sure you're following a thread on Maestronet about plate tuning and bass bars. There's been discussion about who's using "science" in violin making and who isn't. The unavoidable fact that everyone's missing is that compared with making in 1600, our making, techniques, and attitudes are deeply immersed in and surrounded by science. They're looking for names over there--I'd say that virtually every maker from the industrial revolution down is working from within a fundamentally science-based world view. In the current context, for instance, who would have been the first maker to use a plate caliper that measured in fine increments who then felt the necessity to work to the level of precision the tool enabled? I know, for instance, that Vuillaume did this, and that Stradivari, not having the tool, didn't.
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actonern
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| Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Just a fantastic thread! |
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Roger Hill
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| Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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Graduations are a great example. Measure the instruments of post-industrial revolution people who are trying to "replicate" great instruments, including Vuillaume, and you'll find that they apply a level of precision to grads that is in no way appropriate to the original model. Doing it right isn't magic; what else do you think might have gone unobserved or unappreciated? I would put it this way: makers of the last 200 years have been very impressed by measurement, but at the same time extremely unobservant. |
Hi Michael:
would you mind elaborating a bit on some of the facets of graduation that you feel have been unobserved or unappreciated? Thanks |
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Chet Bishop
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Michael Darnton
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| Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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There are a number of ways to look at it, and I'm not sure they're all valid. The current issue is what would you imagine would happen with wildly varying grads? There are a couple of other possibilities, but I haven't done enough with them to talk about them, and sure, I do like to not talk about everything I'm working on, so have a bit of patience with me, please.
I will tell you for certain, though, that not making your top grads 2.7mm or so all over, as many people do or were taught, will NOT harm your violin, so why not try it?
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