| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
mmasterson
Member
Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Posts: 30
|
 Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:00 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Oded Kishony wrote: | | Quote: | | Because there's nothing about the wood that's changing other then the dampening being lessened. Everything else remains the same; mass; stiffness; appearance; smell; texture; etc. |
You can't have it both ways, if the sound is radically changed it's because the properties of the wood have changed.
You still have not said how you measure damping in the wood.
And having looked at your evidence I have a very strong suspicion that the stiffness has changed significantly.
You are offering an untested (on violins), irreversible process and asking people to trust you, but personally, I have no faith in your process because it's obvious that you have not tested it properly and don't have a good understanding of either the chemistry or the physics.
For instance: have you measured the levels of hemicellulose before and after treatment? Have you measured the along grain, cross grain as well as the twisting stiffness of many samples of different varieties of maple and spruce? Red Maple, Silver Maple, Rock Maple, soft Maple, Big leaf Maple, Sitka spruce, Engelmann spruce, Red spruce etc-all woods that are commonly used by violinmakers?
From the limited data on your web site (2 samples) it looks as if the Osage reacted quite differently than the Mahogany. Have you examined why or how they differ?
Have you looked closely to see what effect your treatment has on various types of violin varnish; often very different from guitar finishes?
To make an assertion that it has no effect, you need to point to various tests and samples showing it to be safe. I need more than just a statement of your faith if you want me to pay you hundreds of dollars to put my violin, which may be worth tens of thousands, through your procedure.
I noticed too, that you don't make any statements in your website that you carry appropriate insurance-what if my instrument were accidentally damaged or dropped while in your possession, are you covered?
Look, I'm not putting down your process, maybe it's ground breaking and wonderful, but it looks as if you haven't given these things any thought whatsoever.
I don't even think you have even considered what kind of liabilities you've taken on as a business. You had better hope that someone doesn't bring a $50K violin to you and then claim you've ruined the sound or the varnish in some way.
Best of luck to you
Oded |
I could answer all these things like I have before but it's like trying to convince someone Santa Claus is real and a waste of time. Having looked at your website you're not making violins anywhere in the ten figure range. Perhaps you're resentful someone else has found something significant? I don't know. I was nice enough to offer to show you some things in person but if you'd rather cower behind a computer and resort to taking pot shots I think that speaks for itself. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Oded Kishony
Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 100
Location: Central Virginia
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Having looked at your website you're not making violins anywhere in the ten figure range. |
Ten figure range????? $1,000,000,000 That's a ten figure range.
I just sold a cello for $20,000. and worked on a violin worth $300K a couple of weeks ago, respectable enough IMHO.
You can also read this article which was posted on the web this morning. It will tell you something about my abilities as a violin maker.
http://www2.dailyprogress.com/lifestyles/2010/dec/13/master-stroke-ar-712509/
I never had any intention of having my instrument go through your process.
I've made my point, we're finished.
OK |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chad48309
Member
Joined: 26 Sep 2010
Posts: 110
Location: Michigan
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Oded Kishony wrote: | | Quote: | | Having looked at your website you're not making violins anywhere in the ten figure range. |
Ten figure range????? $1,000,000,000 That's a ten figure range.
I just sold a cello for $20,000. and worked on a violin worth $300K a couple of weeks ago, respectable enough IMHO.
You can also read this article which was posted on the web this morning. It will tell you something about my abilities as a violin maker.
http://www2.dailyprogress.com/lifestyles/2010/dec/13/master-stroke-ar-712509/
I never had any intention of having my instrument go through your process.
I've made my point, we're finished.
OK |
It's disconcerting to see Mr. Masterson dismissing some very important and well-put questions because of inferred attitude, as well. I'm completely with you on this.
_________________
-C.S. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mmasterson
Member
Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Posts: 30
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Oded Kishony wrote: | | Quote: | | Having looked at your website you're not making violins anywhere in the ten figure range. |
Ten figure range????? $1,000,000,000 That's a ten figure range.
I just sold a cello for $20,000. and worked on a violin worth $300K a couple of weeks ago, respectable enough IMHO.
You can also read this article which was posted on the web this morning. It will tell you something about my abilities as a violin maker.
http://www2.dailyprogress.com/lifestyles/2010/dec/13/master-stroke-ar-712509/ |
My bad, I read it wrong from the few thousand dollar student instruments you were advertising on your site. You've misread my site constantly throughout the thread.
In any case you do seem threatened by this by way of your continual attacks and emotional responses.
| Quote: | | I never had any intention of having my instrument go through your process. |
Just don't get all bent out of shape when someone does put one through my process and it gets recognition beyond the local newspaper. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chad48309
Member
Joined: 26 Sep 2010
Posts: 110
Location: Michigan
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
You seem to have a very "Mad Scientist" attitude about your work. Sort of a "you'll all pay someday! Fools! Fools!" excuse for lacking answers to realistic and important questions.
_________________
-C.S. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mmasterson
Member
Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Posts: 30
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Chad48309 wrote: | | You seem to have a very "Mad Scientist" attitude about your work. Sort of a "you'll all pay someday! Fools! Fools!" excuse for lacking answers to realistic and important questions. |
I think it's just the wrong forum to try and share stuff with. From your post earlier:
| Chad48309 wrote: | | This is just something that a lot of people here base their livelihoods on, their entire life's work on, or are planning to plunge the majority of their lives into (students like me, for example). <snip> just have to understand the position most of everyone here is in. This is very serious |
Like you're saying here it's obvious many people in this thread don't like this and don't want to see it a reality. Would it be rational to think going into a builders forum with something like this wouldn't provoke such commentary?
If all the commentary is going to resort to bitter closed minded attacks then I'm moving on.
Last edited by mmasterson on Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Michael Darnton
Moderator
Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 1347
Location: Chicago
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I should refrain from commenting at all, since from where I'm sitting I can't touch or play anything that's being discussed, but I would suggest to you, mm, that simply making a violin brighter could possibly not be received by a lot of classical musicians as a positive thing, and that there is such a thing as response that's too good, for a classical player, at least, partly because it can cause quickly-played notes to trail off slowly and smear together rather than stand out as individuals. Guitars are a sustain-oriented instrument, but violins definitely aren't.
Folk players' wants and needs can be just the opposite, though.
I don't care for the nastiness component of this thread, from all sides. . . .
_________________
new blog at my site! http://darntonviolins.com/blog
my work sites: http://darntonviolins.com and http://darntonhersh.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Oded Kishony
Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 100
Location: Central Virginia
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
If I've seemed nasty I apologize, that was never my intent. Perhaps I got carried away.
I'm sorry. I wish Michael Masterson the best of luck.
Oded |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mmasterson
Member
Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Posts: 30
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Michael Darnton wrote: | I should refrain from commenting at all, since from where I'm sitting I can't touch or play anything that's being discussed, but I would suggest to you, mm, that simply making a violin brighter could possibly not be received by a lot of classical musicians as a positive thing, and that there is such a thing as response that's too good, for a classical player, at least, partly because it can cause quickly-played notes to trail off slowly and smear together rather than stand out as individuals. Guitars are a sustain-oriented instrument, but violins definitely aren't.
Folk players' wants and needs can be just the opposite, though.
I don't care for the nastiness component of this thread, from all sides. . . . |
It's more of a completeness of the voice with the note and string seperation improved as a result of the increased q resonances, so I don't think there would be a definition issue. With rosewood guitars there tends to be a bit of an enhanced reverb effect when treated, however this is ideal. I notice the effect is small on mahogany guitars in relation (whereas they sound sweeter, woodier and more punchy). I'm certain on maple it would be relatively nonexistent.
As far as brightness, I really don't know if it will make maple brighter, my guess is that it will make it harmonically richer and more woody sounding but it's just a guess at this point. If anyone wants to send over a piece of scrap maple from the shop I'd be happy to treat it and put up the spectra results. 3-4" wide and comperable in thickness to the back of an instrument would be ideal. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chad48309
Member
Joined: 26 Sep 2010
Posts: 110
Location: Michigan
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mmasterson wrote: | | Chad48309 wrote: | | You seem to have a very "Mad Scientist" attitude about your work. Sort of a "you'll all pay someday! Fools! Fools!" excuse for lacking answers to realistic and important questions. |
I think it's just the wrong forum to try and share stuff with. From your post earlier:
| Chad48309 wrote: | | This is just something that a lot of people here base their livelihoods on, their entire life's work on, or are planning to plunge the majority of their lives into (students like me, for example). <snip> just have to understand the position most of everyone here is in. This is very serious |
Like you're saying here it's obvious many people in this thread don't like this and don't want to see it a reality. Would it be rational to think going into a builders forum with something like this wouldn't provoke such commentary?
If all the commentary is going to resort to bitter closed minded attacks then I'm moving on. |
You completely misunderstand me. I'm not trying to be nasty, I'm trying to be frank. My only point in that post is that if you want people to treat this seriously, you have to provide serious evidence and respond adequately. Which both myself and many others here have yet to see. You keep taking a "who are you to pass judgement" attitude, when you don't seem to understand that we are all potential customers who are entitled to pass judgement and heap skepticism upon you.
These are all observations, not inferences.
_________________
-C.S. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
L P Reedy
Super Member
Joined: 02 Apr 2009
Posts: 276
Location: Brevard, NC
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I did think this topic was serious, but I've come to the conclusion that our collective leg is being pulled, and April 1 is 3 and a half months away. Osage orange? The only instrument I've ever seen made of it was barbed wire strung between fence posts. If you're fast enough you may be able to play it like a giant dulcimer.
If you really want to prove this works, treat a piano and make it sound musical. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mmasterson
Member
Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Posts: 30
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| L P Reedy wrote: | | I did think this topic was serious, but I've come to the conclusion that our collective leg is being pulled, and April 1 is 3 and a half months away. Osage orange? The only instrument I've ever seen made of it was barbed wire strung between fence posts. If you're fast enough you may be able to play it like a giant dulcimer. |
Eh, it is a valid tonewood
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145991
Tim sent me some from his stash above.
Anyway I got some maple coming in the mail and will put the results up in about a month.
| Quote: | | If you really want to prove this works, treat a piano and make it sound musical. |
I'm actually looking to do this. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chad48309
Member
Joined: 26 Sep 2010
Posts: 110
Location: Michigan
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| mmasterson wrote: | | Quote: | | If you really want to prove this works, treat a piano and make it sound musical. |
I'm actually looking to do this. |
The only suggestion that I would have for this is to remove the bed and strings beforehand, at the very least for safety's sake, but also because it should be easier to maneuver. You could start with an upright, but the wood used typically doesn't change the sound with the most noticeable difference (an experience I'm sure you'd had if you've used your process on an electric guitar), so I'd recommend a baby grand, if you can get your hands on one.
If you have some friends who don't mind doing some heavy lifting in return for beer, check on Craigslist for some amazing finds. You'd be surprised how many people are giving away pianos to anyone willing to move them (no matter how many people who have, it probably isn't enough, so keep that in mind). Since you're merely doing a before and after test, this should be adequate.
I would love to see the results from such a test, so please keep us up to date here if you're able to perform one.
_________________
-C.S. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lemuel
Site Admin
Joined: 12 Aug 2010
Posts: 515
Location: Mt. Elgin, Ontario
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
Michael M.,
It's good to see that you have taken the gamut of questions and criticisms from us skeptics quite well. We just wanted to understand better the source or foundation of your claim. As you can see, none of us are against you personally, but mostly against your claim.
Your website and initial information given to forum members gave the impression that you already had a proven process in place that would yield sounds close to Stradivarius violins, that you were seeking to serve new clients. At least this was the first impression I got and I believe most people who visit your website would get this impression. However the reality is that you have barely started research on violins.
I've also not been able to make any conclusions about what exactly your process (rotating magnetic or electric fields) does to wood. Although I cannot see why anyone with an expensive nice sounding violin would want to try your process, it would be somewhat risky (and here I am truly concerned for you), that hidden damage might happen (as Oded mentioned).
If you had come out from the very start and simply stated that you were starting research on the effects of the process on violins and was seeking volunteers who would be willing to offer their violins for study (with a warning for possible negative effects on the instrument) you would have made a better impression, given a realistic picture, and would have gotten your message across without creating controversy.
It is better to understate and over deliver than to overstate and under deliver is my best suggestion to you.
Thanks for sharing with us and I wish you future success.
Last edited by Lemuel on Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:49 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chad48309
Member
Joined: 26 Sep 2010
Posts: 110
Location: Michigan
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Lemuel wrote: | | It is better to understate and over deliver than to overstate and under deliver is my best suggestion to you. |
I'm having this tattooed somewhere, Lemuel.
_________________
-C.S. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
