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mmasterson
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Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Posts: 30
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 Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| Chad48309 wrote: | | Oded Kishony wrote: | | actonern wrote: | Oded, you should have been a prosecutor  |
I hope it's clear that I'm not hostile to wood treatments but there are many unanswered questions here.
I do find it disconcerting that the process is not transparent.
I think if I were the originator I would offer treated wood for sale rather than to treat other people's wood.
OTOH I would not feel comfortable buying wood that had been treated in some secret way. Choosing your wood is a major investment, your entire future depends on the quality and stability of your wood. Choosing wood is not something I take lightly.
Oded |
Hear hear. I'm not trying to be hostile or snarky, either. This is just something that a lot of people here base their livelihoods on, their entire life's work on, or are planning to plunge the majority of their lives into (students like me, for example). So, it's not so much a hot-button issue, but rather a frustrating, nerve-wracking, and tedious discussion in double-talk.
You just have to understand the position most of everyone here is in. This is very serious and requires equally serious investigation. |
Yes, it's a game-changer, not everyone is going to be happy about it. I'm sure in some circles as the reality sets in it wont be taken well and I will have continual pressure to go to greater and greater lengths to prove my process. However, on the postive side, I do believe talented luthiers building with woods superior in potential will take the bar of tonally superior instruments up another level.
Last edited by mmasterson on Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:19 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Mat Roop
Senior Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 911
Location: Wyoming Ontario
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| Lemuel wrote: | | mmasterson wrote: |
Mind if I ask what notable have you accomplished in your life that gives you the right to judge, criticize and bash someone else's accomplishment? |
Micheal,
Remember, you are trying to sell an idea to a number of skeptics including me. A salesman doesn't say these things back to a client, even if he/she has no experience behind it, but gives more useful information to convince and win more clients.
Skeptics are essentially people who are looking for something they can trust in. Until now, you haven't provide anything to instill it. On the other hand, you seemed to have shaken it by the distorted status of your patent.
You mentioned in your introduction that you are willing to offer your "services free here for members to sample and perform". What did you mean by this? I see the only free service potential clients are looking for at this time is more information about your process. |
Well said! ... Mat |
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Oded Kishony
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Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 100
Location: Central Virginia
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| mmasterson wrote: | | Oded Kishony wrote: | | Interestingly, the conclusion of the Woodhouse and Barlow Paper cited earlier in this thread concluded that the cellular pits in old instruments were not missing or open but that the wood in old violins most closely resembled modern air dried samples. So missing pits does not make wood more closely resemble old violin wood. |
There are no missing pits, that's explained clearly on the website. |
From your website....
But how would an instrument sound if more of these pits were opened?
The second treated sample shows the results of the Stradivarius process. Nearly all of the inter-fiber pits have been opened up.
The effect this has on the sound is a literal “opening up” of the wood acoustically.
You cite the Woodhouse/Barlow paper as evidence that open pits were found on old Italian instruments and therefore are desirable. But the paper you cite says exactly the opposite
From the summary of the paper....
"no undamaged bordered pits could be found with membranes damaged or absent"
You are making extraordinary claims ie "a game changer", you need to have extraordinary proof.
It doesn't seem as if you have the background to prove your process is effective scientifically but there are other, equally valid ways, to make your point.
You got ahead of yourself by claiming this wood results in a great violin when, from what I've seen, no violin has actually been made using your processed wood.
Your assertion that the wood's damping properties have changed are not clearly substantiated. From looking at the spectrum analysis it looks as if in the mahogany sample the damping increased base on the half peak band width. And the Osage sample the damping decreased.
Spiky, skinny peaks are low damping while fat peaks indicate high damping.
But, as I've said, I have doubts about how the spectra were acquired but I leave that to the physicists. I'm just an ignorant violinamker.
Oded |
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mmasterson
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Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Oded Kishony wrote: | | mmasterson wrote: | | Oded Kishony wrote: | | Interestingly, the conclusion of the Woodhouse and Barlow Paper cited earlier in this thread concluded that the cellular pits in old instruments were not missing or open but that the wood in old violins most closely resembled modern air dried samples. So missing pits does not make wood more closely resemble old violin wood. |
There are no missing pits, that's explained clearly on the website. |
From your website....
But how would an instrument sound if more of these pits were opened?
The second treated sample shows the results of the Stradivarius process. Nearly all of the inter-fiber pits have been opened up.
The effect this has on the sound is a literal “opening up” of the wood acoustically.
You cite the Woodhouse/Barlow paper as evidence that open pits were found on old Italian instruments and therefore are desirable. But the paper you cite says exactly the opposite
From the summary of the paper....
"no undamaged bordered pits could be found with membranes damaged or absent"
You are making extraordinary claims ie "a game changer", you need to have extraordinary proof.
It doesn't seem as if you have the background to prove your process is effective scientifically but there are other, equally valid ways, to make your point.
You got ahead of yourself by claiming this wood results in a great violin when, from what I've seen, no violin has actually been made using your processed wood.
Your assertion that the wood's damping properties have changed are not clearly substantiated. From looking at the spectrum analysis it looks as if in the mahogany sample the damping increased base on the half peak band width. And the Osage sample the damping decreased.
Spiky, skinny peaks are low damping while fat peaks indicate high damping.
But, as I've said, I have doubts about how the spectra were acquired but I leave that to the physicists. I'm just an ignorant violinamker.
Oded |
I didn't cite it as evidence for what I'm doing, I put it up to give some more background on inter-fiber pits. The paper is irrelevent for the most part it has no real examination of pit membranes being opened from their closed position. Again you are making assumptions without reading the website and understanding the terminology more clearly. They are not opened as in the membranes are being removed, they are opened with regards to the pit membrane being freed away from the pit opening and into the neutral (or open) position. There's a diagram on the site which clearly shows this.
The peaks indicate where vibrational modes are occuring as the wood is struck, a greater degree indicates less dampening because the wood is resonating to a more substantial degree, not less of one.
I've offered to show some compelling stuff to you in person since you are local and verify testing in person but you seem to have already made up your mind about this otherwise. |
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Oded Kishony
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Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 100
Location: Central Virginia
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The paper is irrelevent for the most part...... |
Okay....
| Quote: | | The peaks indicate where vibrational modes are occuring as the wood is struck, a greater degree indicates less dampening because the wood is resonating to a more substantial degree, not less of one. |
I'm not a physicist but what you are indicating is increased amplitude, not decreased damping. Never the less is does look and sound as if something is happening.
| Quote: | | I've offered to show some compelling stuff to you in person since you are local and verify testing in person but you seem to have already made up your mind about this otherwise. |
You know, there is hardly enough room in my head for me, so I'll ask you to stay out. 
You don't know if I have already made up my mind because I haven't voiced any opinion about your process, all I've done is asked some (admittedly) pointed questions.
I'm curious about what you do and would be interested in trying it, but I'll have to give a lot of thought to how to accurately test and evaluate it.
I think most of your science is lacking in rigor and credibility, but I'm not one to judge since I'm not a scientist.
Oded |
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mr_violin
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Joined: 15 Sep 2009
Posts: 52
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:35 am Post subject: |
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Can this be done on a finished violin? If so I would like to see what would happen.
Can you give names of people that have tried your treatment on violins so we could ask them what they thought of the before and after results.
Larry Lewis |
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mmasterson
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Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| mr_violin wrote: | Can this be done on a finished violin? If so I would like to see what would happen.
Can you give names of people that have tried your treatment on violins so we could ask them what they thought of the before and after results.
Larry Lewis |
Absolutely. I could recommend a number of people that have had it done on finished guitars (most in the 10K range) but I haven't performed it on a violin or mandolin yet (though I'm going to be doing it on a mandolin like instrument soon--a Veillette Gryphon like Dave Matthews plays). Some people might criticize the fact I haven't done a violin yet however wood is wood and I know the results are going to be every bit as spectacular. If nobody is interested in trying it for free I'll just buy one at some point and do it, though I have no idea how to play one lol. |
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Oded Kishony
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Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 100
Location: Central Virginia
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I haven't done a violin yet however wood is wood and I know the results are going to be every bit as spectacular. |
...... you don't see many violins made of osage orange or mahogany, do you.
So, while wood is wood, a guitar is not a violin.
OK. |
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mmasterson
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Posts: 30
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Oded Kishony wrote: | | Quote: | | I haven't done a violin yet however wood is wood and I know the results are going to be every bit as spectacular. |
...... you don't see many violins made of osage orange or mahogany, do you.
So, while wood is wood, a guitar is not a violin.
OK. |
Just haven't got there yet specifically. I've done every kind of spruce and cedar in addition all with remarkable results. Soon I will be doing a blackwood and german spruce classical guitar I've picked up for myself.
Maple is the only of the more common tonewoods I have yet to do although one of my clients has said he will send is Sanzone Carmella archtop soon, which has a one piece maple back. Having done almost every popular tonewood out there it's become evident it is a universal process. The fact the tonal aspects continually show the greatest improvement in the midrange and upper frequency bands really make me excited to try it on a violin.
Third party scientific confirmation of the spectra is in process too, it will take a couple months before that's available and up on the website. |
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Oded Kishony
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Posts: 100
Location: Central Virginia
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The fact the tonal aspects continually show the greatest improvement in the midrange and upper frequency bands really make me excited to try it on a violin. |
Additional high frequency output is not a desirable feature on most violins. In fact high frequency drop off is a characteristic of Old Italian violins. In the mid range ~ 1000Hz, a violin will sound nasal with increased output.
I'm trying to explain to you that a violin is not a guitar. If I were in your shoes I would do some testing before I started making any claims or pronouncements. But it's too late for that.
Oded |
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mmasterson
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Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Oded Kishony wrote: | | Quote: | | The fact the tonal aspects continually show the greatest improvement in the midrange and upper frequency bands really make me excited to try it on a violin. |
Additional high frequency output is not a desirable feature on most violins. In fact high frequency drop off is a characteristic of Old Italian violins. In the mid range ~ 1000Hz, a violin will sound nasal with increased output.
I'm trying to explain to you that a violin is not a guitar. If I were in your shoes I would do some testing before I started making any claims or pronouncements. But it's too late for that.
Oded |
The quality of the mid to high frequencies is increased, it's very musical and angelic sounding, not harsh or whatever you're trying to imply.
I can't say what I have is "the" secret to old violins, however I think what I have achieved accounts for the "it" factor in wood that has never been understood until now. And I believe my process is taking that factor to a degree which has never been heard and therefore can produce instruments of a tonal quality that have never been heard before. So, based on that, I believe if executed properly it will surpass any old violin, even the most famous ones. |
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Dave Chandler
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Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 691
Location: Mt Mitchell in North Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:24 pm Post subject: Strad system |
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Does your process use the application of far-infrared radiation? Is it placed in any sort of a gaseous chamber that would make the pit membrane deteriorate or shrink? Do you use atmospheric pressure to push the membranes open?
If I send a violin, do I only send the body and keep the strings, bridge, tailpiece etc? Does your process have any impact on aluminum or silver-wrapped strings etc?
Have you truly found something new, not just a new application of an existing process?
_________________
Dave in the Blue Ridge
Southern Violin Association
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next with no loss of enthusiasm" Winston Churchill
"I took the road less travelled, and now I don't know where I am." Marco Polo |
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L P Reedy
Super Member
Joined: 02 Apr 2009
Posts: 276
Location: Brevard, NC
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| mmasterson wrote: |
And I believe my process is taking that factor to a degree which has never been heard and therefore can produce instruments of a tonal quality that have never been heard before. So, based on that, I believe if executed properly it will surpass any old violin, even the most famous ones. |
You do understand that the tone of the best of those old, famous violins is presently the standard. How do you propose to verify that you have surpassed the "standard?" That's a little like saying you can make a meter stick more accurate than the one in France that all others are calibrated from. Good luck with that.
And Oded was not kidding when he said "guitars are not violins." There are many factors that determine the sound of a fiddle and IME wood is not at the top of the list. Since you have not even treated a violin yet you are just creating warm air. |
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mmasterson
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Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:53 pm Post subject: Good questions |
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| Dave Chandler wrote: | | Does your process use the application of far-infrared radiation? Is it placed in any sort of a gaseous chamber that would make the pit membrane deteriorate or shrink? Do you use atmospheric pressure to push the membranes open? |
No to all three.
| Quote: | | If I send a violin, do I only send the body and keep the strings, bridge, tailpiece etc? Does your process have any impact on aluminum or silver-wrapped strings etc? |
Everything can be left on the instrument.
| Quote: | | Have you truly found something new, not just a new application of an existing process? |
It's completely new. |
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Mat Roop
Senior Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 911
Location: Wyoming Ontario
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:33 am Post subject: Re: Good questions |
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| mmasterson wrote: | | It's completely new. |
Mike, if the process is completely new.. there is no doubt you can patent it then go public with complete safety... you will garner a whole lot more respect and a heap of business... if its true what you say. Personal testimonials without scientific basis, will not cut it in the real business world... only in the snake oil world.
If you are not familiar with the patent process, send me an email (roop@rezx.biz)... I can guide you to an ultimate low cost solution.
I suspect all of us wish you well with your invention... but we are frustrated because none of us can advise or guide you if we don't know what you are doing!
... And then there is the concern... what if your neighborhood wikileaks finds out your process, exposes it, or someone else patents it, and then you are really **** outa luck!
Get off the pot and patent!! ... just my humble and friendly personal opinion!
Cheers, Mat |
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