Violin Forum/Message Board

byacey · Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:24 pm Post subject:

The varnish is a relatively easier problem to solve than the ground, and the actual components of the varnish were figured out some time ago.

The ground has many important functions, sealing the wood against the subsequent varnish applications, not saturating the wood substrate with oil, enhancing the figure of the wood, stiffening of the plates to a degree, and lastly a "primer" for the actual varnish. I'd like to see more research conducted specifically on the ground.
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Bill

Geemac · Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:15 pm Post subject:

Test the on a piece of scrap wood before the violin.

You might want to try a golden ground. The spice trade was big in those days. Especially in Italy. Those who could afford it used saffron. I use cumin and it works very well and costs much less than saffron. Both are available in the bulk spices section at Super Store. I make a runny water based paste and rub it into the wood with a damp cloth. Doing this will impart a VERY bright yellow color to your instrument which gets even more yellow as it dries. Not to worry because as you apply two or three coats of orange shellac you will achieve the right color. I hand rub the instrument with pummice and then rotten stone between coats to create a very smooth surface. When you are satisfied with the color and smoothness, apply a thinned coat of varnish. I suppose that if you want an outstanding glossy finish you might want to french polish it with a laquer.
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GeeMac

byacey · Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:21 am Post subject:

My understanding is most spice colorants tend to fade after a time, mostly through oxidation and ultraviolet exposure. Turmeric is another that falls into this category. Saffron from what I read is somewhat more stable for long periods of time.
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Bill

Geemac · Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 4:40 pm Post subject:

Something I have started doing is using rotten stone on the bare wood just before I apply the cumin. The rotten stone would act as ground too.
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GeeMac

Thomas Southern · Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:57 pm Post subject:

Something I found on YouTube. A chemist has found chemicals used to preserve wood present in wood samples taken from wood removed from Strad violins during repair. These chemicals are not normally found in wood. Something interesting to view.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6-roahcTIM

violinarius · Member Joined: 14 Dec 2007 Posts: 171

Here is a transcript of the VOA video.

http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2009-03/2009-03-09-voa38.cfm

Do Stradivari violins sell for $5 million ?

Michael Darnton · Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:16 pm Post subject:

This is what happens when journalists don't do their homework. The headline SHOULD read "Scientist finds Secret of Stradivarius AGAIN. This Time for Real. Honest. Really. We Mean it This Time".

He's been finding the "secret" every couple of years since the 80s. In the past it's included varnish made from shrimp shells, gemstones ground up in the varnish, and microbal action on the wood as it floated down the Po River.

There was a Nova program on educational TV in the mid 80s where he demonstrated to HIS satisfaction that there was no difference between his violins and a Strad violin, so all of the additional secrets seem redundantly unnecessary.

Geemac · Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:31 am Post subject:

delete please
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GeeMac

byacey · Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:07 pm Post subject:

Geemac · Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:37 am Post subject:

There is no substitute for the mastered skill of a good maker for getting closer to the sound of the old master's work. But, there is irrefutable scientific evidence to support the application of a chemical based ground by those old masters.
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GeeMac

Michael Darnton · Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:42 pm Post subject:

I'm not doubting the basic concept, but what I see is a number of conflicting theories, supported by various conflicting evidence. So which "irrefutable scientific evidence" are you choosing to believe?

Geemac · Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:49 pm Post subject:

The electron microscope and chemical analysis results.
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GeeMac

Michael Darnton · Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:01 pm Post subject:

I find the whole issue rather undecided. I'm familiar with several chemical reports, which don't agree, including Condax and Raymond White (the most interesting one, I think). Nagyvary has his own, and though people don't like his attitude, some trust his chemistry.

And many restorers don't agree with the interpretation of the electron microscope images, but that's another issue.

Geemac · Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:39 am Post subject:

I think that once you know that, in those days, the application of chemicals was likely not applied to improve sound, but to prevent insect damage, much of what they did makes sense. In addition it was known that salt improved the sound of a violin. We all know that salt will draw out moisture and the loss of moisture helped the violin sound better.

However, superior craftsmanship and design are at the core of excellent sounding violins.
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GeeMac

Michael Darnton · Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:01 pm Post subject:

I don't know that the purpose of it was to prevent insect damage. There's certainly enough insect damage to prove that if they were trying to do that, they failed.

I believe you're wrong about salt: salt attracts moisture; salt in wood attracts moisture causing the wood to be wetter. Salt outside of the wood might temporarily attract moisture out, but only as long as the salt was there.