Violin Forum/Message Board

[John Cadd]

When you fit a violin neck the mysterious angle of neck and the relative bridge position need to be known before you start .
I always prefer to glue the neck without the fingerboard attached .That allows an extension to the neck surface line to be clamped on and it makes a physical contact at the bridge position .The tip of this extension can be monitored for height and straightness and is used to confirm the correct neck angle in one go . The curved surface of a fingerboard plus the scooping is not as foolproof as one straight ,flat surface .

[John Cadd]

Edgar Russ has a video about the sideways drawing . I made the drawing a long time ago on a piece of hardboard . It looks a bit dark and faded now but the important features can still be seen . When I make the drawing again it will be in white plastic using an indelible pen.I bought 3 pens for my wife to label food for the freezer in plastic bags .
The drawing mainly needs the baseline which is the bottom surface of the belly.(The part that touches the table.)
While you have the drawing of your long top curve you can draw it before it gets lost .Raise the drawing to allow for the edge thickness.Start at the bottom end of the violin with the saddle height. If you like to cut half the edge thickness or the whole thickness you need to make that decision for the top of the saddle .
The bridge position can be established with a vertical line and then work towards creating the ideal string angle over the bridge. If you want a high arch you need to adjust the bridge height to fit where the bridge angle will allow it .
Working a little backwards from the neck end ,the neck wood itself without the fingerboard will give a line to the bridge . Where that line meets the bridge will be a mark below the next line which is the fingerboard extension .That runs from the top surface of the fingerboard at the nut line. (not the top of the nut though ).The fingerboard has a scoop to allow for string movements as they vibrate. So only use the end tips of the fingerboard for a line. That fingerboard line will be below the bridge top for string clearance as the strings are depressed . Imagine that line is on the Centre line. The string clearance figures for E and G are your choice if you are the player .Somewhere about 4 and 5.5 mms .The bridge top is curved so the middle of the bridge will be a little bit more where there is no string on the centre line .
The vibrating string length to the bridge top forms the ideal angle with the bridge to bottom saddle line. The measurements from nut to body edge and edge to bridge feet are in a special proportion but they will confuse the measurements for the string angle . Try to keep the slight difference in mind .
Edgar Russ gives an important feature of the alignment of the nut point .The baseline of the belly extended towards the scroll will hit the top of the fingerboard surface .
My neck outline pattern of the neck may be out of shape but when I hold a violin sideways and look along the back edge it lines up with the eye of the scroll. That is a correct alignment for the back edge. My aluminium outline of the scroll must tip back too far .It`s worth checking that . Edgar Russ mentions that several makers in the far east made mistakes with the bridge angles at one time .
There is another measurement to mention. The neck end (maple only) stands above the edge by 7mms and sits inside the edge by 7mms
Several necks are sold with a cut out notch where the nut should fit. Normally a neck top surface is flat all the way to the end of the peg box . When did that strange alteration happen ?
If all that seems like a jumble it`s time to make the drawing .Double check it all . It`s one of the most confusing parts of making a violin .

[John Cadd]

Surprisingly some violin sites have lost the meaning of the very special word Mensur. One tells ut is the length of the vibrating string. That loses all the meaning .
Mensur is the proportion of length between the nut to body edge (130mms) and the body edge to bridge foot(195mms) . That gives a 2 to 3 relation .!30 /2= 65
65x3 =195
The mensur figures measure flat along the body surface to the bridge feet line close to where the soundhole nicks are made . Close will not mean exactly however .That`s all part of violin history and can be about what worked best or what may have been a mistake .
So for an interesting quirk the short Mensur measurement 130mm (nut to body edge) contrasts with the vibrating string length of 13 inches.Different units and basically unrelated measurements but they both contain the magic number 13 .
Halsmensur (130mm) and Deckenmensur( 195mm) are the German way to show the Mensur relationship. Germany maintaining the cultural reference for us .

[John Cadd]

Artificial Intelligence wrongly seems to think Mensur refers to the vibrating string length.Mensur refers to 2 measurement relationships from the nut line to the bridge feet. The vibrating length is from the nut line to the bridge top.Anyone that has basic mathematics must know there is a difference.
But violin fitting stops just short of perfect exactitude and allows some adjustment for the bridge position and the soundpost position .Keeping the bridge back vertical is important.
Be very wary of the swamp of AI that seems to know it all and often gets it wrong . Some say the vibrating length is 13 inches but in mms that is about one or two mms too much . One old violin book will mention 1/4 inch.Later books will say 7 mms .But they are not exactly the same.
I did not quote the string angle over the bridge.Off the top of my head I could have got that wrong. Strangely one list of violin measurements omits that useful detail .
The ratio of 2 to 3 in practice brings the note positions into familiar positions for players. Just as there is wiggle room in the measurements there is no exact position for a players fingertips with vibrato and sliding . That`s where player freedom and comfort combine .

[John Cadd]

One last thought came from the Edgar Russ video about drwaing the side view of a violin.Right at the end he has drawn marks to show where the fingerboard end stands above the belly arch. This was so close to the end ( of the video) he seems to fudge that information or seems uncertain . That measurement would be pointless anyway . The main measurements can be fixed at the bridge position. The maple surface of the neck will extend (mentally ) to the bridge (point A) . Above that will be the mental extension of the fingerboard (nut line to fingerboard end (point B).
Above that is the top of the bridge which will be high enough to give playing clearance measured upwards to the strings from the end surface of the fingerboard .
So lots of mixed up measurements to gather together in one drawing . Make it a Diagram instead and do it all with a ruler .

[John Cadd]

What is the most useful thing to come from a sideways drawing ? It makes fitting the neck much easier .
I made a straight wooden gauge (about one inch square section ) to clamp on the neck and the bridge end has a vertical slot to hold a piece of thick plastic that works as a humble depth gauge. That plastic has a slot to allow up and down positions and a bolt to keep it still .Any different arching heights are catered for .The neck joint with the body has to be cut accurately enough for the plastic gauge to touch where the bridge will stand.
There are necks on sale with fingerboards attached and also metal gauges to help with fitting . They look like a one size fits all without any adjustment at the bridge position . I have not seen them close up.
I checked my aluminium cutout shape for the neck against photos on the Guaneri Plowden and it checked out perfectly .I was a bit doubtful before . I had copied that outline from the Heron Allen book .
From the Plowden photo the line along the back edge fitted the eye of the scroll on one side, but not so accurately on the other .Also in the Plowden poster photo ,testing the line of the top edges I could not see where the fingerboard narrow end was all that close to the line . But it`s a good violin so we won`t bin it just yet .

[John Cadd]

The one reliable thing about a violin is not the curves but a straight line. That line is not one physical thing ,It is sqinting with one eye open to align the middle of the scroll ,down past the nut centre and the bridge centre down to the saddle holding the tail loop. Just hold a steel ruler to compare everything lines up .
The Drawing from the side needs the string angle first from saddle tip (at the right thickness from the belly ).Over the bridge and down to the fingerboard where it meets the nut . Then drop from the string line to the top of the fingerboard end.nearest the bridge. The fingerboard made with a correct curve and edge will give a lower line where it meets the top of the neck wood line.
That neck wood top has to be 7 mms above the belly edge . Remember the position of the belly at the bridge position and the string clearance for the players .
Add up all that with the Mensur measurements , and the top parts of the violin will be in proportion .
One drawing in full scale will be able to settle your nerves .

[Michael Darnton]

I have a protractor-type thingy for measuring neck sets that integrates all of these things into a couple of hinged pieces of plastic. It rests on the board and has scratches along it's length for the actual actual path of the strings, locates the nominal normal string length (bridge position), considers neck insert and saddle height, and gives me a projected string angle in degrees over the bridge while also allowing me to measure the pitch of the board. It also measures that angle on set up violins.

It's become a bit ragged over the years. The violin in the image has a long string length and stop, as you can see :

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[John Cadd]

As one of my teachers would say "A thing of beauty is a joy forever ". This layout would work better with the fingerboard attached .
Fitting the fingerboard after gluing on the neck leaves a nasty job of getting the sides of the fingerboard straight . Ebony dust has a habit of staining nice clean spruce .

[John Cadd]

[quote="John Cadd"]As one of my teachers would say "A thing of beauty is a joy forever ". This layout would work better with the fingerboard attached .
Fitting the fingerboard after gluing on the neck leaves a nasty job of getting the sides of the fingerboard straight . Ebony dust has a habit of staining nice clean spruce .[/quote]
If you wanted a Quiet violin to appease the neighbours ,would a lower angle work best ? Is there such a thing as a quiet violin ?

[Michael Darnton]

Not a quiet violin, just a different violin.
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[John Cadd]

The plastic guide will be an historical feature in one hundred years. Seriously , there is huge value in such an object from such a well respected maker .
I asked about quiet violins off the top of my head .AI will always take the easy way out and talk about Heavy Metal Mutes. That`s a different thing altogether . A Baroque violin would be more what I mean . But one advert about a small dancing masters fiddle mentions it`s huge sound volume. A violin designed for a living room that has a sweet sound and not for a huge theatre. A different topic but a lower bridge will come into it .

[John Cadd]

One very important thing about the sideways drawing is you can work out the correct length of tailpiece needed to get the 1/6th afterlength exactly right. Tailpieces are made in various sizes and they are all made for 4/4 violins. Once you have the length from bridge to tailpiece insert --and the end of the tailpiece sits near the end saddle correctly --you still need to adjust the tailpiece loop .Plastic loops can be stubborn and stiff so some guesswork is needed for precise measurement .
If you have a tailpiece with built in tuners there is some adjustment to keep the 1/6th proportion right .Each adjuster moves the afterlength and combining that with wooden peg tuning you have enough to keep you busy before the oboe sounds an A to start the rehearsal .
The drawing does not need to be elaborate.For the afterlength calculation it can be done with one straight line.As long as you can divide by six and know how to measure your own violin it saves all the inconvenience of taking all the strings off to wind in the tailpiece loop adjusters . I found out the hard way and used the cheapest Alice strings which all broke inside a day . I don`t even know what they might have sounded like . Just buy reputable strings and make a drawing .
I need to look up the patent for harp shaped tailpieces .The afterlength on them is not so certain until the logic of them is explained. All I know is they work very well .

[John Cadd]

Woodsound Studio Violin Family Setup is a family firm and they have the important sideways diagram showing the string length (vibrating between bridge and nut) and the afterlength ( vibrating between bridge and tailpiece insert ).
Some people get tangled up with mathematics and how the angles are worked out. To simplify all that you can focus on one very important point . Imagine there is a pivot point that controls the angle of most things on a violin.That point is the neck connection to the top just 7mm in from the edge.The neck angle is set from that point . Whatever changes ,upwards or down ,that point stays the same .
Read this edit before you read the next post about measurements.
The Woodsound Studio Violin chart gives distance from Pegbox to Peg thumbpiece as 16mm. That`s probably an extreme compared to 10mm . You get more chances with 16mm.
The measurement between pegbox and peg thumbgrip does not mention the collars on the pegs. I ought to ask them about that to avoid misleading readers here .

[Michael Darnton]

Check their measurements on a real violin, though.
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new blog at my site! http://darntonviolins.com/blog
my work sites: http://darntonviolins.com and http://darntonhersh.com