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Chet Bishop
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 Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:34 am Post subject: |
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Good point, Michael; Same question could be applied to the Weisshaar book. He was not following the politically approved violin-repair rules of the twenty-first century, any more than Samuel Clemens wrote under the auspices of 21st century PC rules for writing. (The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn would never have been accepted by today's standards, but he was one of the best american writers ever.)
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ctviolin
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| Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Chet Bishop wrote: | | Good point, Michael; Same question could be applied to the Weisshaar book. He was not following the politically approved violin-repair rules of the twenty-first century, any more than Samuel Clemens wrote under the auspices of 21st century PC rules for writing. (The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn would never have been accepted by today's standards, but he was one of the best american writers ever.) |
Interesting points, all.
I've been thinking about this relationship between violins, violin makers and violin purchasers and players, & the currents of popular thought that rule the day regarding these instruments (That is; the thoughts that rule any day - any time.) and how the facts about violins really tend to be steeped in a quagmire of change, fiction, fact, and dollars.
It's a quagmire alright , but an interesting one to think about...
Talking about it, on the other hand, is about the only way to decide where we are (or where popular opinion stands) today, generally, regarding such things and such thinking - and where we are is basically (again, in my opinion only) that we must trust the best players to decide what is "the best" in any regard, about actual violins and what their worth or value is.
So, for me what it comes down to is pretty simple.
The other thing that has a large variable, and very real affect in this field, is the phenomenon of "collectability" - when taken apart from playability. And the very real monetary reality it has on value. The reasoning behind such valuation often seems fairly arbitrary to me (by the way - an absolute non-collector)
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kjb
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Joined: 06 Feb 2013
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| Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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I think the basic idea that a violin as a "money maker", kind of turns me off.
Having taken a few classes and talked to some of the big guys and seen million dollar violins, I have gotten the idea that is what is it all about , even in modern makers.
so you end up with some guys struggling who make great instruments because someone (collector/ expert) decides it won't increase in value as fast as the stock market.
The question " yes but how does it sound" does not seem to be very important as "how much will it increase in value". |
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John Cadd
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| Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| How does the standard of 1920 to 1960 differ from 2013 ? When and why did it change ? Two questions for the price of one there . Does anyone know if his efforts are considered good or outstanding ? There is no morality about altering a Strad. People do what they want. We can`t judge them either way but it must have some historical interest ,surely . Best to ask now before questions on violin forums are banned . |
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Chet Bishop
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| Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| John Cadd wrote: | | How does the standard of 1920 to 1960 differ from 2013 ? When and why did it change ? Two questions for the price of one there . Does anyone know if his efforts are considered good or outstanding ? There is no morality about altering a Strad. People do what they want. We can`t judge them either way but it must have some historical interest ,surely . Best to ask now before questions on violin forums are banned . |
I can't say when /why it changed, but there was a shift from seeing a Stradivarius violin as a top-quality working tool for a virtuoso musician, to being an art treasure, which must be preserved at all cost.
There are other things that are the same sort of shift. Antique... nostalgia... collector-craze...anything can drive the price up and change how the thing is evaluated. Which would you rather have, an original Auburn speedster that was found in a barn in Vermont, untouched for eighty years, or a perfect replica, with twice the horsepower, and brand new everything? (Honestly, I don't need either one, but if it was a matter of which would I rather find, with the right to sell at market value...pretty obvious choice.)
There was a time, within my lifettime, when a genuine Strad could be had (sometimes) for low five figures. Now, fifty years later, they are 50-100 times more expensive. How come?
During that same period of time the values regarding their repair, restoration and/or conservation also changed radically. Weisshaar's book was THE authoritative work, even 15 years ago...now people say, "...well, he did some pretty drastic stuff..."
No point in trying to dissect history to determine why peoples viewpoint changed, unless it is strictly curiosity that drives you. Such changes seem to happen regardless of what anyone does to argue the contrary.
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actonern
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| Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm looking forward to the episode on "Rick's Restorations" when a Strad is brought in and stripped down, refinished, and made to look like new for a delighted customer! |
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ctviolin
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Location: Roswell
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| Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:35 am Post subject: Re: Violin topographical map |
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| antonio wrote: | What do you say about using a topographical map to achieve the desired archings of the top and bottom plate, like on the picture 5 and 6 below?
Does anyone sell these maps? I know it's not traditional approach...
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Well, after all is said and done - I think it can be done easily enough, though most people don't really do it exactly that way (as you can tell when you read through this thread (and other threads) closely enough) but many people will follow the idea shown generally.
My teacher did use a similar method by routing the outside surfaces of the plates on an overhead router in a step like manner, and then carving the profile accordingly.
But I've got to say, the aspect of creativity was stricken to a great degree and the end result was simply controlled by what the machine work dictated or provided.
Were they great violins because of doing this? No, of course not.
Were they more Strad-like, or anything of the sort? Of course not.
In my opinion they were merely restricted to one specific type. And it was just a type, not a better type , nor necessarily what the wood itself wanted, but that's just me, of course.
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John Cadd
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| Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Would you say using a mold restricts you ? That`s always the same shape till you use a different one . |
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ctviolin
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| Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| John Cadd wrote: | | Would you say using a mold restricts you ? That`s always the same shape till you use a different one . |
Interior rib shape (outline) only, is the same with the same mold.
To me it's not (a mold) restrictive at all. Especially since I MAKE my molds to suit my own desire for the basic body shape.
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John Cadd
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| Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:59 am Post subject: |
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| So do you make a new mold for every violin so it won`t cramp your creativity ? |
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ctviolin
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| Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:50 am Post subject: |
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| John Cadd wrote: | | So do you make a new mold for every violin so it won`t cramp your creativity ? |
?
No, I don't. Nowhere near.
Dude, what "point" are you attempting to show here?
I'll admit to being a "bit" curious again, at this point, about what point it is that you're trying to make.
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Clifford Green
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| Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:21 am Post subject: |
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CT and John, would you guys please unlock your horns. I can't see that you are accomplishing any thing positive.
John, you've been around violins for a long time, much longer than my 15 yrs, so I'm sure you know that it is very easy to alter a mould by selective padding, not being obsessive about the ribs being vertical or warped, and designing the corners which the mould does not dictate. |
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Michael Darnton
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| Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:46 am Post subject: |
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What I really want to know is when all the guys who work in little one-man violin factories, and their supporters, got the idea that violin making was any kind of artistic or creative project. It might have been so 500 years ago, in one shop, the first one, but since then?
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ctviolin
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| Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Clifford Green wrote: |
CT and John, would you guys please unlock your horns. I can't see that you are accomplishing any thing positive.
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?
How can answering someone as politely as you can be "locking horns", so I've dropped out of the conversation whenever it became unanswerable or caustic so far - but I must admit that I thought that he might be asking an answerable question here.
Oh well.
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ctviolin
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| Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Darnton wrote: | | What I really want to know is when all the guys who work in little one-man violin factories, and their supporters, got the idea that violin making was any kind of artistic or creative project. It might have been so 500 years ago, in one shop, the first one, but since then? |
Didn't you think this at one point in your long career also?
Perhaps it just takes a certain amount of time and experience in the field, in order to start seeing violin making as anything other that an artistic pursuit?
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