Violin Forum/Message Board

[actonern]

Is there anything like a "Cremonese convention" on where the final turn (sting/point) should end on a scroll?

I know they're all over the place in execution, but is there a sense that there was a pretty commonly agreed upon design standard?

To help visualize what I mean, imagine holding the instrument horizontally (belly up) with the neck to your right. If there was a clock mounted in the middle of the round face where the point of the turn ends would it point to 6 o'clock? 4 o'clock? 3 o'clock?

Best regards,

Ernie

[Michael Darnton]

In the original Amati concept, the last little pointy part of the turns mimics in shape and placement to a great extent, if not always perfectly, the white space between the pegbox and the head of the scroll--that little area of white space I like to think of as the tip of a white tongue reaching up under the turns. I suspect this was a design thing mostly honored in the breach, as they say:


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[actonern]

Cool! I've always tended to conceive of it as a continuously narrowing "ditch" ending in a point.

But where would this point be, in that tradition, using my "clock" example?

Best regards,

E

[MANFIO]

This is a good question. With Cremonese makers the last turn ends about at 6 (clock) or just a bit more. This is a very important detail, the eye of the conosseur goes directly to this point because it reveals a lot of the maker's knowledge of the "grammar". Not only where it finishes, but also the direction it "points out", it can be oriented more towards the center of scroll, it may poit outwards (not good, I think) or follow the chamfer of the scroll. Notice also the "comma" of the Amatis. The "throat" of the scroll is another very important point.

The best thing to be done is trying to copy the scroll of the instrument that is inspiring you.

Here a Nicolo Amati:



Here the Harrison Stradivari, it goes a bit beyound the "normal" point, I think it is not a typical example:



And here the Andrea Guarneri viola tenore:



With Venetian instruments the last turn may go a bit further, and with the Brescian school in general it finishes prior to the 6 (clock) point, like in this Maggini violin:



And in this Gasparo da Salò viola:



I could write and give more examples but I am very tired today. I have the intention of making a whole thread about stylistic aspects of the scrolls.
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[actonern]

I take it that means, Luis, that the terminus of the point would have been (conceptually if not in fact) at the same point as the throat... that's pretty much 6 o'clock.

[MANFIO]

Good point Michael!!!
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[jacobyfineviolins]

Thank you Michael, and Luis. Nicely illustrated.
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[Chet Bishop]

"because it reveals a lot of the maker's knowledge of the "grammar""

Hmmm... How serious a breach of violin etiquette is it if this point of grammar is missed, due to abysmal ignorance? I have typically run my "comma" a good deal further around the clock than I should have, I see. More like nine, using Ernie's clock analogy.

Does that brand the instrument as "strictly amateur", or is it just a "tie that doesn't quite match the suit"?
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[actonern]

Or Gasparo Da Salo above... what excuse did HE have??? A professional & everything.

[MANFIO]

Hi Chet! It depends. If your instruments sound good and you see directly to players who are satisfied with them, no problem, players judge instruments based in their overall impression more than based in details like this.

But if you call an instrument a "copy" and miss this point and show the instrument to a dealer or a conosseur he will notice that on the spot because he certainly know the grammar.

I saw an interesting video with a famous Japanese sushi man, many of the things he said about making sushi (the philosophycal part) could be aplied to violin making and other activities. One of the things he said in the video is that "we must know more about what we make then our clients, otherwise we will not be able to impress them".

Professional players are not aware of these details but many of them have handled and played many fine instruments, when they "feel" the good things they saw in old fine instruments in your instruments (a light instruments, a well shaped neck, correct colour and varnish texture, corners, etc.) you will certainly sell more instruments, hence the good thing about following the grammar.

But we are always trying to make better instruments and this point is an important one, I think. It is always good training our eyes seeing good photos of classic instruments, a good part of our craft depends on the training of our eyes.

Actonern, the market is much more forgiving with old instruments than with new ones, old makers had a freedom we don't have today. And Gasparo's scroll follows the grammar of the Brescian School.
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[actonern]

Luis, I meant it as a joke... I'll start using those emoticons...

[MANFIO]

Ha! By the way I am an amateur maker!!!
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[MANFIO]

Reading the articles by Roger Hargrave about Del Gesù's methods is a good idea, there is an entire chapter about scrolls:

http://www.roger-hargrave.de/Seiten/english/Bibliothek/Bibliothek.htm
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